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[Sean0931]

I've been considering this a long time. There are a few mods that insert guns into Dwarf Fortress, but by and large they just add in ready-made weapons to adventure mode.

Why not... Think Bigger?

Would it be possible to create a full gun industry?

Make brimstone more common (Say, as common as (Gah..) Microcline and Orthoclase), and allow it to be combined with Charcoal and Saltpetre (Not sure where this would be gathered from. Traditionally it was from fermented pigs dung, but this is not yet possible) to create gunpowder. 2 units of saltpetre, one of charcoal and one of sulphur would combine at an alchemists workshop to make 4 units of gunpowder (Alchemy skill is used, and powder has quality ratings, powder could be stored in barrels or bags, and explodes violently is ignited). Each could be taken to the metalworks (weaponsmith skill used) along with one bar of metal and used to create 30 buckshot (Blunderbuss), or shot (Rifles/muskets). These would have quality values that affect their damage as normal ammunition quality does.

The guns themselves could be made at a metalworks using one bar and one wood (Alternatively stocks could be precreated in a carpenters or craft workshop). The weaponsmith skill is used.

Guns in general are far slower firing and more innacurate than bows, but far more damaging, and liberally ignore armour (if such a value is used in the combat system). Is there any way (In this version or the next) to have the density affect the damage values rather than the metals damage value?

Blunderbusses fire one shot, but inflict multiple piercing wounds (If such a feat is possible (Spiked balls do as such, I believe)), and are the most innaccurate and short-ranged. This could be balanced by having them be the most easy weapons to create in the short term, with high damage even at low qualities, or perhaps requiring less parts or metal bars.

Muskets fire a single shot, and do large amounts of piercing damage. They are the fastest firing weapon and are between the rifle and the blunderbuss in accuracy and range. Musketry is the easiest skill to train (If Bow/Crossbow skills are not the hardcoded ranged skills) , due to its greater refire rate, but even at high skills muskets are highly innaccurate.

Rifles fire a single shot, at a far slower rate than muskets, but are far more accurate, and deal the same damage. Rifleman would be the hardest skill to train, but the most rewarding in the long run, as high skill would mean much faster reload time.

Ideally, the gun industry would be difficult to set up and maintain, especially when producing quality weapons, but rewarding, especially against later-game and more difficult enemies. A good gun industry could be a goal to look forward too. And it would finally give a use for all that damn Galena.


Addendum with additional ideas.

Repeating rifles could be a very difficult weapon to make, requiring a dozen or so different metal parts each, but have a much faster fire rate than regular rifles, making them twice or more as deadly.

Small cannons could require five metal bars and two pieces of wood each. The result would be very heavy, and slow the average dwarf right down: For all intents and purposes, they are rolling around a small cannon. The shot would require 2 bags of gunpowder and 1 bar for 2 shot, but would deal massive damage. This would be a real kicker: extremely expensive to train, slow firing and not all that accurate, but capable of one-shotting semi-megabeasts.

[UristMcGunsmith]

This is obviously relevant to my interests. If you have any questions about real life guns to make your mod more intricate, feel free to ask.

[Sean0931]

This is obviously relevant to my interests. If you have any questions about real life guns to make your mod more intricate, feel free to ask.

I'm very grateful for your interest, but for now I'm merely asking if it's possible. Making a mod right now would be rather.. superfluous, at the moment.

Of course, I would much, much rather others built upon my idea and created the mod themselves once the new version rears its bearded head. For one thing, it would no doubt be of a much higher quality (My sum modding experience involves a glance at the raw files, and copy/pasting in the Dig Deeper Mod), and take, oh, let's say around a year less.

I would be happy to provide support for such an exellent member of the community of course, but relying on me to build a mod would result in rather more Boatmurdered than Nist Akath.

Edit: Sorry if I didn't make my intention clear.

[Deon]

Why not... Think Bigger?

You can think Very Big, but it's impossible to implement any complex solutions like yours because of hardcoded limits .

Your intention has nothing to do with modding possibilities.

It's impossible. You can use only Smelter and only Furnace operator skill, and it does not influence the quality of the produced items at all.

Next version will bring us closer to it, with custom workshops and whatnot, and I think everyone already designed a few possible firearms solutions. At least i have 3 or 4 working concepts for my Fallout mod which will definitely work with the next version.

Repeating rifles could be a very difficult weapon to make, requiring a dozen or so different metal parts each, but have a much faster fire rate than regular rifles, making them twice or more as deadly

Sadly you can't mod the speed of firing at all . It depends on the dwarf's speed only, so common dwarves will shoot machineguns like pistols and trained dwarves will shoot cannons like chainguns. Which is quite sad. Because even the next version doesn't address it.

[Sean0931]

Why not... Think Bigger?

You can think Very Big, but it's impossible to implement any complex solutions like yours because of hardcoded limits .

Your intention has nothing to do with modding possibilities.

It's impossible. You can use only Smelter and only Furnace operator skill, and it does not influence the quality of the produced items at all.

Next version will bring us closer to it, with custom workshops and whatnot, and I think everyone already designed a few possible firearms solutions. At least i have 3 or 4 working concepts for my Fallout mod which will definitely work with the next version.

Repeating rifles could be a very difficult weapon to make, requiring a dozen or so different metal parts each, but have a much faster fire rate than regular rifles, making them twice or more as deadly

Sadly you can't mod the speed of firing at all . It depends on the dwarf's speed only, so common dwarves will shoot machineguns like pistols and trained dwarves will shoot cannons like chainguns. Which is quite sad. Because even the next version doesn't address it.

Damn, that's what I feared.

So what is the most complex form of Gunpowder mod that could be accomadated? For example, would the basic industry still work?

[UristMcGunsmith]

I dont see why not. A lot of people have put guns and bullets into DF. Check out the zombie/cowboy/fallout mods. (I love cowboy fortress.)

[Deon]

Yeah but still it's renamed crossbows which shoot renamed bolts .

I wonder what will the next version bring.

[UristMcGunsmith]

Also, does anyone happen to have the cowboy mod still?

[Arrkhal]

I believe saltpeter can be dug up, in the current version.

[MATGLOSS_STONE:SALTPETER]
[NAME:saltpeter][COLOR:6:7:1][TILE:'x']
[ENVIRONMENT:SEDIMENTARY:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]
[SOLID_DENSITY:1201]

On balance, a blunderbuss should really be harder to make than a musket, since the muzzle has to flare out evenly.  Even very small inconsistencies will make the accuracy complete and total poop (meaning that 99% of historical blunderbusses had no accuracy to speak of).  Even with buckshot, you'd get the absolute worst, doughnut-shaped patterns you've ever seen.  You basically wouldn't have much of a chance of hitting past about 10 yards.

Historically speaking, anyway, the giant "pilgrim blunderbuss" you see would not have been at all common.  Real blunderbusses were typically carbine-sized or smaller, with about a 12"-18" barrel, and about 2 feet long overall.  Mainly used in situations where one would be fighting at very close range and need to reload fast, without standing the weapon up on the ground.  One reason why they're heavily associated with naval combat.

On muskets, a good quality smoothbore can actually be quite accurate, and print groups of about 5-6" at 100 yards, with plain round ball.  The main issue is that kind of accuracy requires a tight-fitting ball and patch, which would have been used for hunting, but not for warfare.  Slower to load, and after about 2 or 3 shots with tight-fitting shot, you wouldn't be able to reload anymore due to powder fouling.  So soldiers were typically issued extremely undersized shot that would rattle around on its way out of the barrel.

Early rifles were really only marginally more accurate than a good quality musket with tight-fitting shot, but that actually was not their main advantage.  The main advantage was the rifling grooves meant more room for powder fouling to accumulate, which meant you could shoot for an entire battle, without having to switch to undersized shot.  Actually, some "transition" muskets used straight grooves for that very purpose, before someone went "hey, if these grooves were a spiral, the shot would spin!"

So basically:

Blunderbuss - light, compact, fastest to load (next to a pistol), effective range 15 yards.

Musket with tight shot - huge, heavy, slow to load, can only manage about 3 shots before switching to loose shot, but effective range is about 120 yards.

Musket with loose shot - same as above, but a little faster to load, and only accurate to maybe 50 yards or less.

Rifle - same enormous size and weight as a musket, much slower to load, but it's accurate out to maybe 150-200 yards all day long.

This reminds me of the time when I tried to do a mod for Mount&Blade, introducing American Civil War era firearms.  I basically wanted to reproduce the time in history where horses were still a major contribution to field warfare, and where muzzleloader vs. cartridge arms was still a valid tactical consideration.  But technical limitations mean that that's very unlikely to ever happen.

[UristMcGunsmith]

Don't forget different mechanisms. In my collection I have a double barreled 60 caliber PERCUSSION CAP pistol. No flint/wick required. However the maker is a total mystery. There are zero markings and the wood is rotted to the point where I'm not comfortable shooting it.

Also, the besides all of these points, muskets/early rifles were 18-early19th century weapons. Way too far ahead of dwarf fortress's time frame. If you want to get guns closest to the time period (15 century? I forgot.) all you'll need are hand cannons.

Which are so stupidly ineffective it's a miracle people used them at all.

However, at one of the prior Arizona Machine Gun Shoots someone brought an interesting piece.

It was a long wooden rod, about 4 feet, with a quadruple barreled cannon on the end of it. It used a percussion cap design and standard powder/ball. No patch. There was a percussion cap per barrel, and to fire the weapon you slammed the the barrel of the weapon on a surface (Like a wall you're standing behind). This could be done for each barrel. The weapon was accurate to about 15 yards. By accurate I mean we hit a 4 foot by 4 foot wall each shot. The group size was about 16 inches with one flyer.

Point is, look into 15century and below for weapons to give dorfs. Dorfs with muskets is just silly.

[Arrkhal]

Don't forget different mechanisms. In my collection I have a double barreled 60 caliber PERCUSSION CAP pistol. No flint/wick required. However the maker is a total mystery. There are zero markings and the wood is rotted to the point where I'm not comfortable shooting it.

Sounds like a howdah pistol of some kind.  Pedersoli is the only current maker, though theirs are clearly marked.  20 gauge = .62 caliber.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=129&lang=en

I want one.  It'd be a good companion piece to this:

It was a long wooden rod, about 4 feet, with a quadruple barreled cannon on the end of it. It used a percussion cap design and standard powder/ball. No patch. There was a percussion cap per barrel, and to fire the weapon you slammed the the barrel of the weapon on a surface (Like a wall you're standing behind). This could be done for each barrel. The weapon was accurate to about 15 yards. By accurate I mean we hit a 4 foot by 4 foot wall each shot. The group size was about 16 inches with one flyer.

I saw that on Youtube.  It was actually an antique Asian weapon, intended to be fired with fuses.  Hopefully didn't damage it too badly with all the whacking and banging against things.

The time period for DF is 1400 AD and before, which is late enough to include matchlock arquebuses, which are basically muskets with worse ergonomics and the matchlock ignition system.

[lastofthelight]

I don't see a gunpowder industry as being dwarven at all. Actually, its more of a goblin concept.


See, guns of this period were not things of 'skill' - they were meant to be quick and easy alternatives to spending years training with a bow. That was their advantage. They were not as accurate or as damaging as a bow, but anyone could use one and be 'good enough'. Thats not dwarven.


If I did gunpowder and guns, I'd only give them to humans and goblins, and make them cheap-ass range weapons.

[Arrkhal]

See, guns of this period were not things of 'skill' - they were meant to be quick and easy alternatives to spending years training with a bow. That was their advantage. They were not as accurate or as damaging as a bow, but anyone could use one and be 'good enough'. Thats not dwarven.

Hardly.  Using an English longbow was a "skill" only in the sense that being able to lift boulders is a "skill."  Effective combat archery, under Western tactics at that time, required overbuilt arm muscles and tendons which could only be developed through a lifetime of training.  Strength training, rather than "skill" training.

All western projectile weapons of that period--longbows, crossbows, and early firearms--relied on massed volleys, with practically no emphasis on individual marksmanship skill whatsoever.  Sure, there were tournaments and Robin Hood style goofing off during peacetimes, but those involved shooting at far shorter ranges than would be used in combat, unless lines were breached (in which case the yeomen were probably screwed no matter how well they shot).  Marksmanship competitions and other archery games in England also only came about because English nobles banned the playing of games and passed various other laws, in order to force their peasants to practice archery more.  That sounds like a Goblin sort of tactic, make fun things (which don't also train you in skills of war) illegal so that everyone trains more.

Sure there's the difficulty of shooting a bow without sights, but guess what?  Period crossbows and arquebuses had no sights, or rudimentary ones at best, and no shoulder stocks either, so they would be equally difficult to shoot accurately.  And modern bows have sights and laser rangefinders and everything else.  If the French had required all of their peasants to keep a crossbow at home and practice with it regularly, the average French crossbowman would've been just as good a marksman as an English yeoman.

So you're correct about the "training" part, just not why training was important.

Crossbows and firearms were basically both in the same category.  Didn't need to literally train up yeomen from toddlers so that they'd have the arm and finger strength necessary to draw a longbow.  The weapons were harder to manufacture, and the lack of a need for constant practice (to keep the requisite muscles strong, as archery uses ones that wouldn't be used to till fields) meant they could be safely locked up in a noble's armory, to minimize the chance of an effective rebellion.  Crossbows were more accurate at short range, but firearms were actually faster to load.

[UristMcGunsmith]

Not to mention that they eliminated plate/chain armor from the battle field. Guns are absolutely dwarven. They kill things dead and require mining to get the gunpowder. (Even though I never played WoW, Ive been conditioned to associate guns with dorfs) PS3 EDIT: My pistol is definitely a howdah hunter in 58. Except mine looks like it was left to rot on the bottom of a lake for 50 years.

[immolo]

Not to mention that they eliminated plate/chain armor from the battle field.

Plate mail wasn't eliminated from the battle field until far later than 1400. It was actually used as a type of bullet resistant armor. Gun smiths would actually shoot heavy plate and leave the dents in it to show that it could resist bullets.