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[Armok]

Spoiler: some semantics (click to show/hide)

At what level of certainty do you differ between agnostic or not anyway? a probability of 0 or 1 requires infinite evidence (mathematically proven by Bayes theorem), so it's physically impossible for a human bring to be what is usually meant by "sure" of anything.

Personally, I assign a probability of about 1/10^6 to the universe being created by some kind of intent (the vast majority of that is as a computer simulation), about 1/10^30 for said creator having any kind of interest or spending any attention on earth, about 1/10^100 for it being something at all resembling that of some kind of religion humans might conceive of, and 1/(3^^^^^^^^3) of it being a omnipotent omniscient benevolent anthropomorphic entity that had some kind of causal relation at all with some specific earth religion.

I define agnosticism as giving both theism and atheism at least 5% probability, thus I'd say I'm atheist.

As for arguing on the internet, that's futile, you won't accomplish anything, and forum posts are not really something you should base this kind of belief on anyway. Go read the bible, a few interpretations, some books on Bayes theorem and human cognitive biases, formal logic and philosophical methods, and then spend a few years thinking really hard about it. Until you've done this you are not qualified to have an opinion on the matter.

Do you know what is almost as stupid as fundamentalists? Peaple who think that any joe on the streets like them's inchoherent bull**** is equally valid to dedicated philosophers and cognitive scientists who have spent their whole life studying how to think accurately and solving these things. REGARDLESS of who is right, even on the side that is correct 99% of those that follow it are just sheep who happened to get lucky with what memes they were exposed to first.

Now stop this useless thread, if you want to read this stuff you can go to the old atheist thread. If you want to know this stuff, the only way to REALLY know is to reach your conclusions by yourself. If you are not prepared to do that, then just accept that you're not qualified to have an opinion on the subject. (and no, agnosticism is an opinion just as well as atheism or theism.)

[Leafsnail]

I'm sorry, I find this whole idea of attacking people from above over this extremely insulting.  I mean, yes, this thread isn't going to accomplish anything... but can you tell anyone what the vast majority of threads on this forum will accomplish?  I mean, forum games, for example.  You play them, they finish, they get forgotten.  No point, right?  Threads about politics or recent events have a few arguments, then sink to the bottom and are forgotten.  Once again, pointless, yes?

As for "arguments on the internet always end in insults"... it doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  An argument is only as likely to turn into a flame war as the people on it, and I don't like generalisations that begin with "People on the internet always..."

Armok - agnosticism doesn't have to be anything to do with religion, it can just mean you're unsure.  And if we're not qualified to have an opinion on the subject... and agnosticism counts as an opinion... what are we meant to do?  And if we're all just philosophical zombies as you suggest, what makes you think you're any different to the rest of us?

[JoshuaFH]

In before this explodes into a two hundred page fiasco.

[Diablous]

In before it is locked. You know it will happen as much as I do.

[Armok]

Most threads bring enjoyment, this one will just bring strife and flames.

You shouldn't believe anything until you are qualified to do so. if someone asks, just say you're not qualified to answer. (Atheism happen to be the right answer, but you shouldn't believe so just because I say it, that'd be missing the point entirely.)

I said nothing about philosophical zombies, were did you get that from?

[Leafsnail]

Most threads bring enjoyment, this one will just bring strife and flames.

I quite enjoy looking over these, and it helps with my critical thinking course.

You shouldn't believe anything until you are qualified to do so. if someone asks, just say you're not qualified to answer. (Atheism happen to be the right answer, but you shouldn't believe so just because I say it, that'd be missing the point entirely.)

Armok, what makes YOU different to everyone else?  Why can you state the answer to this while noone else can?

I said nothing about philosophical zombies, were did you get that from?

99% of those that follow it are just sheep who happened to get lucky with what memes they were exposed to first.

Basically... because you're saying that someone is just the product of their environment, that they contribute nothing.

[Cthulhu]

I'm sorry, I find this whole idea of attacking people from above over this extremely insulting.  I mean, yes, this thread isn't going to accomplish anything... but can you tell anyone what the vast majority of threads on this forum will accomplish?  I mean, forum games, for example.  You play them, they finish, they get forgotten.  No point, right?  Threads about politics or recent events have a few arguments, then sink to the bottom and are forgotten.  Once again, pointless, yes?

As for "arguments on the internet always end in insults"... it doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  An argument is only as likely to turn into a flame war as the people on it, and I don't like generalisations that begin with "People on the internet always..."

Armok - agnosticism doesn't have to be anything to do with religion, it can just mean you're unsure.  And if we're not qualified to have an opinion on the subject... and agnosticism counts as an opinion... what are we meant to do?  And if we're all just philosophical zombies as you suggest, what makes you think you're any different to the rest of us?

A forum game is different.  There's no "Split into teams and tell the other team why a major part of their fundamental worldview is wrong" forum game.  If there were, it would've been locked by now.  This is an extremely touchy subject.  You have two crowds, neither of which is willing to give the other side any room, because doing so is accepting that your worldview is wrong.  No one is willing to do that.  I have never seen an atheist converted to religion or vice versa because of a thread.

You know what happens when two massive objects push against each other and neither gives way?  An earthquake destroys Haiti, that's what happens.

Armok, what makes a person qualified to believe something?  Is it only after he's pulled some arbitrary probability figures out of he butte (Sorry, too much Goonstation lately) that support the belief he has already set his course upon?

[Euld]

Pi is a ratio between two numbers and is always the same no matter what the units used are. It doesn't matter if I say 1 inch, one foot, one centimeter, or one cubit. For any diameter divided by the circumference, the will always be Pi.

Duh?

But anyway I like how you try to disprove a claim of biblical error with a quote that says that the sea is a bowl made out of cast metal.

Spoiler: I can't resist. (click to show/hide)

I could reply to more, but I think the thread is going elsewhere now...

[Leafsnail]

A forum game is different.  There's no "Split into teams and tell the other team why a major part of their fundamental worldview is wrong" forum game.  If there were, it would've been locked by now.  This is an extremely touchy subject.  You have two crowds, neither of which is willing to give the other side any room, because doing so is accepting that your worldview is wrong.  No one is willing to do that.  I have never seen an atheist converted to religion or vice versa because of a thread.

In that case... just out of interest, have you ever seen someone convert from wanting to post on a thread like this and not wanting to post on a thread like this because someone's told them not to?

You know what happens when two massive objects push against each other and neither gives way?  An earthquake destroys Haiti, that's what happens.

Earthquakes are what happens when the rocks eventually do give way, though...

[Armok]

What makes me special? Having read countless books, speding much of my time on philosophy related stuff, having actualy studied philosopy and religeion courses in shool and gotten extremly good grades in them, uderstanding relevant sciences such as psychology physics mathematics biology etc. uite well and applying that knowledge, and having a fair bit of talent at it. Among other things. Philosophy and cognititive stuff is simply what I specialize in, and one day will probably do for a living. Same reason why architects and carpenters are better than me at building houses.

[Leafsnail]

But I don't see how that would give you any extra insight into whether an omniscient being created the universe or not.  Heck, to reach your definition of an "informed opion", you would need to learn pretty much everything that has ever happened in the universe.  I'd certainly think that the subjects you've mentioned, while useful for other things, are not relevant to this.

[Armok]

...

*facepalm* Yes they are extremely relevant. Sigh, why am I even posting here? Nobody smarter than a mouldy potato would even click this thread anyway.

[Cthulhu]

I am extremely arrogant, despite being one of the most poorly-adjusted people on the forum

Yes, please do leave this thread.

[Leafsnail]

Armok... no, they do not make you more qualified to say whether a god exists or not.  They can tell you more about the nature of the world around you, but they don't allow you to somehow sense the prescence of or a lack of a god.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Actually, studying philosophy only enables you to discuss philosophy in the same terms with others who have studied philosophy. It doesn't provide insight into the world, it provides insight into what some random asshole or another thought about the world. What the fuck does it matter what Nietzsche or Kant or Ayn Rand or anyone else thought? Their opinions are no better than anyone else's, and yours aren't better for knowing theirs.