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Author Topic: An Otherworldly Ark  (Read 39242 times)

Shoku

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An Otherworldly Ark
« on: February 24, 2010, 08:46:44 am »

I've decided this deserves some spring cleaning what with my having taken the concept through another half a dozen iterations since starting the thread (in about as many months.)

I am deeply dissatisfied with fictional species from almost every medium, artist, and so on. Going out there you're lucky if each world doesn't just have a sentient humanoid and some pet along with a few colorful plants but even if a fictional world has some variety it's all so heavily derived from Earth life.

The reason for this? Progressive thinking. Everyone wants to think that life starts as some bland slime and progresses up to the top of a ladder where it then builds telescopes and cars and things but evolution isn't about that at all. Evolution just has species adapting to their local environment- if something works NOW it sticks around. All of these complicated and delicately balances systems just show up because of so many organisms competing with each other.

Nobody makes their fictional worlds like this. It's always that progressive starting point A and ending point B and THEN they try to fill in the stuff in the middle, or really a lot of the time they don't even bother. I'd like to change that. It seems like a simple way to keep people from just aiming for some end point is to have different people take over the reigns.

So then the thing this is actually about: I'd like to get a few people drawing animals. Really all that's required is a shape that's clear enough to tell where the mouth is at and a reasonable resemblance to the ancestor species but you're more than welcome to talk about any organs and things that are part of the creature. Right now I'm acting in a largely advisory role but I will definitely make numerous artistic contributions if this project doesn't fizzle out.

09/29/10: We've got several varieties of simple bacteria colonies nestled in a shell of two slabs of calcium-y material and one very unrelated balloon sort of creature.
11/15/10: There are a few lineages now. An eight armed jet creature has come from the old bacteria colonies and diversified into several forms and there is also a long... thing rooted to the ground by a hard shell. We have an entirely alternate lineage of what seem like electro-plants so far.
The prompts really need attention to take this project in a direction unlike the trashy alternatives out in the rest of the web, or maybe we need more people.
Spoiler: Old Details (click to show/hide)

Current prompts:
There are plant globs floating around on the water's surface now. Enough mobility to seek them out would be very advantageous.
Life stages. Not everything starts out a small version of the parent just doing the same thing for it's entire life.  Right now we've got a few things that hang around on or in the parent early on but metamorphism is untouched.
Other environments. We've got some wacky stuff out on the continental shelf but in close proximity to that there are tide pools, streams, and murky swamp type areas. All of these can have very different salinity from the continental shelf waters but some may not. Still the depth of water and character of the ground below it have obvious differences and the virtue of living somewhere your predators do not always holds great promise.

Thread Summary:
Up to post 33 - Mainly Star Trek complaints.
Post 34 to 50 - Supermikhail shows up as the first person willing to draw anything and I start talking details about the project.
Post 51 to 60 - I apparently never asked people to make something with muscles skin and nerves. They thought we were just picking up from unicellular bacteria before that. Also I talk about the advantages of sexual reproduction other than orgasms.
Jopax authors a bacteria species with shells.
Infodump about oxygen.
Mikhail gives a bacterial colony jet propulsion and I try to explain organs.
Posts 61 to 70 - First drawings and working out what anyone else is talking about.
71 to 80 - Things actually start to take off with creation and drawing.
-Anyone new can maybe start around there but I will eventually review the rest of the thread as well.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 03:37:27 pm by Shoku »
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Deon

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Re: An Alien Ark
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 10:23:39 am »

Quote
and fish are little more than a worm
Actually fish is very different from a worm in everything except for a shape.

It's a nice idea to make "realistic" aliens, but if you go with an approach like this:
Quote
Lizards are shaped like fish and fish are little more than a worm with an internal skeleton and some improved sensory organs resting right in the same general location
then IMO it wouldn't be much better than "Mr Potato head with Earth animal bits".

I'd suggest to use real evolution tree and classification as a base for making up concepts, or it would be just a different way to make "mr. potato head" (sorry I just really liked that comparison :P).

Still , good luck, and the idea seems fun.
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cerapa

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Re: An Alien Ark
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 03:03:02 pm »

This sounds a bit similar to Sagan 4. I havent looked at it much but people started out with a single life form and then slowly branched out from that. It has a ton of species, like over a thousand.
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Shoku

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Re: An Alien Ark
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 08:45:00 pm »

Quote
and fish are little more than a worm
Actually fish is very different from a worm in everything except for a shape.
Yes, they have a skeleton so you can do away with the pressured chambers and body wall muscle. Advanced finfish have some interesting organs including those interesting gills where blood runs opposite the flow of water but the more basal ones aren't all that big of a leap.
I would have acknowledged the difference more but I was trying to proceed quickly.

Quote
It's a nice idea to make "realistic" aliens, but if you go with an approach like this:
Quote
Lizards are shaped like fish and fish are little more than a worm with an internal skeleton and some improved sensory organs resting right in the same general location
then IMO it wouldn't be much better than "Mr Potato head with Earth animal bits".
Fish have all of their sensory organs up front as a "face" because that's where worms had them. Lizards have four legs jutting out sideways from their spine because that's how fish fins grow.

Of course there is a great deal more to the anatomy and physiology of life on Earth but the shape and size of organs lies beyond the scope of this project, or at least the initial stages. I'm not really aiming at people familiar with the workings of life here (assuming my trouble forgetting what I know is something other people would have trouble with.)

For the first step I did plan to just take one further step away from basing things on Earth life. I don't want to require that people deal with chemistry for this or really anything except eventually some basic ecology a long ways down the road.

Quote
I'd suggest to use real evolution tree and classification as a base for making up concepts, or it would be just a different way to make "mr. potato head" (sorry I just really liked that comparison :P).

Still , good luck, and the idea seems fun.
The problem with doing that bottom up is that clades really only come around to describe the descendants of a species that diversified. Until I've seen which species do that there's no way to make those classifications. Everything in closely related at first and it's only with a lot of time that their lineages become distantly related.

This sounds a bit similar to Sagan 4. I havent looked at it much but people started out with a single life form and then slowly branched out from that. It has a ton of species, like over a thousand.
The single cell stuff is pretty silly when I know so much about how cell membranes work. It was probably a smart move not to deal with that kind of chemistry. (Ok, some of the microscopic stuff is very much like what I'm aiming for.)

Hydrazoans and sponges and worms and such don't seem to have their shape recognizably based on the shape of the cells they came from (ok, sponges do but how many people could guess that those structures were good for straining water and another combination of holes running through a blob wasn't?) so I want to skip that stage in my project.

It seems really disjointed though. It's each artist just doing their own lineage and branching it once or twice a week. I'm thinking if everyone were to just work on, say, plents. If I can get people to draw enough each one would branch ten ways and then maybe two of those would continue.

I didn't really catch how they worked environmental changes but saw that they shifted it every so often. After the first few iterations I'd need to start distinguishing areas like that.I suppose I will need a real map for the planet this is happening on.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 08:54:12 pm by Shoku »
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Shoku

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Re: An Alien Ark
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 05:10:28 pm »

I'm half tempted to try programming a perlin noise world generator.
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alway

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 02:52:37 pm »

For climates, it may help to take a look at the March 2010 edition of SciAm, they have a nice article about how the biosphere drastically moulded the climate of earth called "Evolution of Minerals." So while the initial climate would be random, after life came about it would be hugely altered. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolution-of-minerals
I would help, but I personally would get way too worked up about having to choose an arbitrary starting organism and the science of it. IMO if I were to do a project like this, I would have to start at the very beginning: pre-biotic chemistry. And I would likely use a simulation to do it...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 02:54:09 pm by alway »
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 02:31:15 pm »

Well if you want to I don't mind. I'm just not because it would be trouble to most people- both in trying to learn how cells work in the first place and because of the low perceived payoff of those steps.

*Plants and animals both worked out multicellular processes independently but look at the cells now: they're roughly round with flattened portions where they push up against other cells. We have many cell types that specialize and have very different shapes from that but then we just have another problem of the form of the cell not seeming to have much impact later.

If you have a good way to think about alternative energy sources and different chemical interactions I'd like the hear about it but making an alternative to photosystem II or glycolysis is not really an artistic endeavor and something like the use of the ribulose-5-phosphate pathway is just so far removed from what I would want to ask people to come up with.
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winner

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 05:59:30 pm »

I thought that both plants and animals had a common multicelular source.  Nevermind wikipedia says otherwise.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:49:27 am by winner »
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 10:44:55 am »

Naw. Membrane proteins that allow clustering are pretty simple so bacteria can even get mutations for those in lab settings. Communication is a little more involved but in brief you just take the first protein in a pathway and replace it with something resting in the membrane. Conformation changes put a little more requirement on that in that you both need the outside section to interact and that that interaction has to cause the portion on the other side of the membrane to change shape or release certain atoms.

Seeing as we don't actually know the details of how that works in many (MANY) cases, any fictional life still bound by chemical laws would have parts we didn't understand anyway. Anyone can still try but I don't want to make this stuff a focus.
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Aldaris

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 01:36:35 pm »

I would like to direct you lot to this. Have fun.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2010, 11:01:13 am »

Bummer. They brushed it off thinking I wanted a world of mollusks and ammonite descendants. 
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DreamThorn

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 02:07:04 am »

So... do we start with a basic sea-worm, or what?
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 01:41:39 am »

If you're not interested in making your own body plan to start with yes.
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Flaede

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The Sleepwalkers?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2010, 02:06:54 am »

you are thinking like this strip of Dresden Codak, though farther back in prehistory.

I'm curious where this goes, but I can't sketch worth a darn.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2010, 05:03:14 pm »

You don't need to draw well.

Also: I finally got my damn scanner functioning so I won't have to try to take pictures of things with my phone to get them into the net. It's not an issue I think I've mentioned here but has been an issue nonetheless.

Edit: Though of course I know by now that telling people they don't need to draw well won't get them saying "ok, I can do this then."
Mostly the thing is that I don't want people working on the same creature for long. Evolution produces a whole lot of duds for everything that works so it's a good thing to do a lot of stuff without it being "good".

You don't need to make anything you'll want to go back and work on more; I want to avoid that kind of thing. Ideally I would end up with enough people that I could just send a dozen things at each person and say "think about it for maybe ten seconds and make two variations of these" for a lot of this and it might work to just choose the ones we liked most after a few steps like that.

I can't do that it wouldn't be any good at the start anyway. I need to do a lot of guiding for early body plans to go anywhere and I don't think people would be as interested in playing the telephone game with doodles anyway.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 12:02:01 am by Shoku »
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