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Author Topic: An Otherworldly Ark  (Read 39226 times)

Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2010, 12:19:02 pm »

Problem is bacteria don't have any kind of internal organs. It's just internal soup, membrane, and then outside. Nothing like channels.

But good news: we're jumping past bacteria and up into animals. Somebody needs to make something with a mouth, skin, and muscles (which implies nerves to activate them.) You don't have to do like anatomy slices or anything, if it can, say, open and close its mouth then it clearly used muscles there. It can have more body parts than a mouth if you think they could be made with skin and muscle.
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2010, 01:39:57 pm »

So I took Trisgea Lupum and went somewhere:

I got to a film of a bacterial colony between two layers of reinforced mineral. From here I guess they have to separate into tissues, because the cells in the middle don't come into contact with acidic medium anymore and always carry out the basic stage, while the outer ring can concentrate on acids and obtaining nutrients.
So while you're jumping into animals, can someone evaluate my speculations?
I suppose that for this organism curling up into a tube wont be very beneficial as it feeds on the edges. So it growth in thickness, especially in the middle and cells specialize. There develop channels to distribute nutrients through the body, then it's reasonable for the cells of the outer ring closest to the channels to specialize in catching food and digesting it on the first stage, and the rest of the outer ring can form some sort of protection for these areas.
Anyway, I'm rambling.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2010, 02:36:56 pm »

Nice specialization but don't the ones in the middle has some trouble with reproduction? They'd push the ones at the edges out pretty quick if they didn't abstain and bacteria aren't exactly known for holding back on making more of themselves.

Really though, are you that much more interested in bacteria than the larger stuff?
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2010, 02:47:31 pm »

Uh, I meant the bacteria or whatever, developing into the larger stuff. I thought it was the current theory - many unicellulars clumped together at some point decide to stay like that, and by necessity specialize into tissues?
And about reproduction - I guess, the middle ones reproduce inside the body, making it thicker. And the dead cells go out of the squirting channels.
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Jopax

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2010, 02:53:24 pm »

Or they elongate, as they reproduce they push outwards, but because of the more-less hard membrane they can only do so in two directions, so they grow longer as they reproduce, this can also work for a multicell organism.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2010, 03:54:36 pm »

Yeah, unicellular becomes multicellular if it's got the right pressure to. Colonies are easy: you just need to jam a protein through the membrane so that the part sticking out can connect to a copy of itself. Voila, and anchor between two cells. It's not real multicellularity until they actually communicate with each other though.

That's not all too difficult though. Usually the little metabolic pathways going on inside of a cell are just "thing A dumps a phosphate onto thing B and then thing B dumps it onto thing C and so on" and it looks like cells always set up communication just by slashing thing A and replacing it with a protein that sticks out the membrane. That thing probably just locks on to the phosphate group (or whatever little group of atoms) if the outside bit isn't interacting with anything but when that does get it's signal from outside the bit inside moves a bit so that it will give up the phosphate.

...I should probably have though of a more general way to communicate that...

Anyway there's a mineral shortage in the oceans now so growing these shells is difficult. Now what~
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2010, 02:29:08 am »

Oh, yeah, I suspected that ice caps would melt, sooner or later.
But volcanoes are still active somewhere below, so one strand goes into the depths to join the bizarre hordes of night fishes. You know, I think there can be an evolutionary advantage to the lack of minerals for building a rigid shell. The other strand's shell grows rudimentary, in exchange for the increase of flexibility, provided that it already has something like muscles. Also, one more strand can sacrifice the lower shell and become a gastropod, ready to conquer land. Actually, this thing that no one has classified yet, is ready to give birth to all possible kinds of mollusks.
Although returning to the most important strand, I'm have trouble determining which way the shell grows rudimentary, because I'm not sure which organs the evolution would consider vital (I'm not sure that the creature has organs at all), to protect.
Anyway, trisgea burger before the global warming:

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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2010, 03:57:52 am »

Wait so are these bacteria cultures or clams? There's sort of a giant difference between the muscle that hinges two shell bits and has gills and siphon valves and such and a ball of bacteria. We've still not so much as made something with a mouth-
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2010, 04:17:43 am »

I know, but it looks like a clam to me. ::) If it manages to keep its shell on through the development of the rest of organs necessary, it'll become a clam.

Oh, I had an thought. So, by your estimates, how long did it take trisgea lutum to become trisgea burger?

And oh, who said anything about mouths? Maybe it only consumes liquid food, and sucks it in right through a flat space on a stomach.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2010, 12:10:07 pm »

They're in the water and there are only bacteria. That's as close to liquid food as things ever got but unless it hunts down only other colonies of bacteria it would be sucking in a whole lot of water to get the bacteria it could just pick out one at a time.

A mouth isn't strictly required though so was can do this absorption patch on the bottom if you want. We sort of already said they get their energy from the exposed parts on the side so if they don't need that anymore you might as well make the shell edges touch for protection- except if the shells are strong enough for that it should sink and if it sinks that food hole on the bottom is going to be covered up. I don't exactly see these having a way of moving around soooo, more details perhaps?
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2010, 01:02:47 pm »

Uh, there's either something disastrously wrong with my English this week... or not.

Anyway, forget the patch on the bottom. It moves through squirting! And what's even more amazing, it has just gained it's first big muscle - big heart in the middle of the body that pushes the water for greater propulsion... You know what, I think one strong sucker and one strong squirter are more efficient than many weak ones in different places. Right? Although, there isn't any evolutionary advantage to that as it has nothing to chase... Scratch that.

Hey, I know. It all comes together now. Trisgea burger has stayed in the shallow waters, where there isn't a lot of minerals. But there's much more plant life than in the depth. So, it sacrifices some of the shell, which makes it lighter and more flexible, it grazes near the shore with its sticky and slimy tendrils poking from under a kind of circular double shield, waggling about and collecting micro algae. The shield protects basically only the "heart".

And then it becomes symbiotic with the cyanobacteria it's stuck! And having a shield to protect itself against dehydration (maybe), it forwards the advance of life onto land dramatically! Jesus Christ!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 01:21:13 pm by Supermikhail »
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2010, 05:25:58 pm »

Might as well just call it a jet rather than a heart. If it was really good at picking up all the bacteria near it then it might want to move every few hours.

Though does light go through the shell or do the cyanobacteria have to stay outside to get light?
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2010, 06:48:14 am »

I thought I found a flaw in my theory - trisgea symbiotum doesn't have systems necessary to get it onto land. But it doesn't have to! While trying to get as close to the source of light as possible, it squirts towards the shore and floats there. So, naturally, when the sea ebbs, trisgea symbiotum stays on land. The shell has evolved into a thin layer, enveloping most of its body - so thin as to let light in. The fact that trisgea symbiotum can now blackmail cyanobacteria for energy, ensures its disproportionate growth and rapid evolution.

Wait, why, actually, does it have to have that protective layer all over its body? I think mollusks just cover themselves with slime and it works against dehydration, somehow... Also, carp, the cyanobacteria need oxygen, and slime is better for that.

I think it should be able to kind of snail its way around, using jet muscles in other places in its body.
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Shoku

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2010, 10:20:42 am »

The wait you say "wait, why x" sounds like you're taking whatever you said back so I've got no idea what you're saying the creature is doing.

I don't really like moving the only the you seem interested in onto land right now though- the oceans are basically empty.
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Supermikhail

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Re: An Otherworldly Ark
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2010, 11:34:19 am »

That was a part question. As there isn't much competition, I think all the different strands of trisgea exist simultaneously - the one that's a primitive one-layer film that went into the depth to be closer to the source of minerals, the one that's floating near the shore, the one that's on the shore, the one that's dropped on the sea floor in a thick shell. I think.
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