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[Jonathan S. Fox]

Glad someone likes it. Is there a way I could submit it when it's done?

Do you use SVN to check out the source code? If you're not on the project yet, I can give you SVN commit access, I'll just need to know your sourceforge username.

The largest issue I forsee with the loan shark is it could be by far used as a quick boost to the early game and then easily paid off in the mean time, unless all goes wrong.

In many games loans are often supposed to be a serious drain to make you consider not getting one

... and also to others discussing this.

I find that in most games with loans, they're so prohibitively non-viable that they're more of a trap to ruin players who don't know any better. I wouldn't mind if they're a usable strategy here. Here you'd pay back with 100% interest within one or six months, which is absolutely brutal by real world standards, but it's actually doable if you have experience with the game.

Here's what I'd do. Keep their expectations brutal, so that it's rough on experienced players, but make the penalties not game-ending if you default. Only let you default once, ever, unless you manage to make amends, but the worst than can happen is that some gang members attack one of your safehouses, and regardless of the outcome of that, the loan shark gives up. And make the penalties sliding scale, so that even that is only for really severe defaults, like the six month $10,000 loan.

You can also give a confirmation when they go to take out the loan. Have the loan shark press you on whether you're "absolutely sure" you're good for it, and warns you that the penalties for being unable to repay him could get violently unpleasant. Give the player an opportunity to back out. After all, the loan shark's not trying to get you to fail to repay him. He wants you to repay. If you're not good for it, he'd rather not make the loan. You could also do what Capital Fish mentioned about giving your character a bad feeling about it.

Other alternatives include installments, and renegotiating. He's ultimately in this for the money -- get the money to him late or on a different schedule, and he'll quit trying to send thugs after you. Just don't come to him crying next time you need money, since he's not interested in unreliable clients.

[jasonred79]

That's even worse... then no one would take a loan, ever. (except maybe if you desperately need guns before a raid, or need to hire an ace attorney)

2 people have used the word overpowered so far. I don't get it myself. So, let's say you start a new game, and take a 10k loan. You buy guns and outfits with the money, giving you the ability to... shoot up places a bit. And it let's you go to certain locations a bit earlier. Sort of. (your disguise skill is still awful so maybe not). In 6 months, either you have made 20k, or you haven't made 20k. If you didn't manage it, your game is probably sunk. If you  managed to make 20k... what was stopping you from going making 10k in 3 months and being better off than not having the loan shark?

Jon, your suggestion is definitely overpowered. I would just take the 10k loan, with no intention of paying and every intention of slaughtering the raiders.

I dunno... my experience with games that have loans is almost *always* that you can borrow at say 5% or 10%... but you can often get returns on capital of 20-30%. In other words, you are just borrowing money so you can use it to earn even MORE money. That's the way it works in real life too.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

2 people have used the word overpowered so far. I don't get it myself. So, let's say you start a new game, and take a 10k loan. You buy guns and outfits with the money, giving you the ability to... shoot up places a bit. And it let's you go to certain locations a bit earlier. Sort of. (your disguise skill is still awful so maybe not). In 6 months, either you have made 20k, or you haven't made 20k. If you didn't manage it, your game is probably sunk. If you  managed to make 20k... what was stopping you from going making 10k in 3 months and being better off than not having the loan shark?

Jon, your suggestion is definitely overpowered. I would just take the 10k loan, with no intention of paying and every intention of slaughtering the raiders.

I dunno... my experience with games that have loans is almost *always* that you can borrow at say 5% or 10%... but you can often get returns on capital of 20-30%. In other words, you are just borrowing money so you can use it to earn even MORE money. That's the way it works in real life too.

People say overpowered because once you have experience with the game, it's not hard to pay off those amounts in the time allotted, and this will just become a way to give you money sooner. I don't think it's overpowered since you're paying back double, though -- I just think it's an interesting way to make your experience easier if you know what you're doing.

I'm aware that you could just steal the money and overpower the loan shark. I don't think that's a problem, since you actually have to work for it and take a risk by killing the loan shark's thugs. It's an interesting dramatic turn for a player to pursue, and that's why I'd allow you to do it. Just prevent you from repeating it more than once in a game, make sure there's some danger and challenge involved in the exercise, and suddenly abusing the system is a feature instead of a bug.

Regarding borrowing money for capital investment with the expectation of a return, that's not really meaningful in LCS. You can make capital investment in weapons or safehouse upgrades, but material goods don't translate into money for the LCS. It's not a business simulation, it's a revolution.

Personally, I've been in situations where this would have been useful, even for an experienced player. For example, in nightmare mode, I've wanted to borrow money to buy weapons and outfit a squad for an attack on the prison before my founder gets executed. In the short term, it can also help you to pay rent if you've been careless but know you can clean up your act. Additionally, starting your attacks three months earlier might be worth it just because it's more fun than sitting around for a player that knows they can pay off a large loan in six months.

As long as you insure that the system isn't destructive, I'm pretty happy with the idea of having loan sharks.

[Capital Fish]

Do you use SVN to check out the source code? If you're not on the project yet, I can give you SVN commit access, I'll just need to know your sourceforge username.

My SourceForge username is "ransomeliolds"

[beorn080]

My personal favorite site for looting, your safe house. Or rather it was, back in the day when everyone in the safehouse could open fire in one turn. Made raids trivial and incredibly lucrative.

[Funk]

make cars harder to steal and make stolen cars get a chance to be reclamed if not used, of couse finding a stolen car ups the heat of the safe house.

car reclame rate based on safe house, time its been there, car crime rate and how long the car has been stolen.


 

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Do you use SVN to check out the source code? If you're not on the project yet, I can give you SVN commit access, I'll just need to know your sourceforge username.

My SourceForge username is "ransomeliolds"

Done, you should have commit access now.

make cars harder to steal and make stolen cars get a chance to be reclamed if not used, of couse finding a stolen car ups the heat of the safe house.

car reclame rate based on safe house, time its been there, car crime rate and how long the car has been stolen.

I think car theft difficulty is pretty good, but there are several "to do" items for making stolen cars more risky to use, including getting pulled over by police. I like the suggestion of having a chance that stolen cars will be found at your safehouse.

[EuchreJack]

I'm all for the Loan Shark, and having to pay back double is nothing in this game.  Robbing locations can easily net $500 per day, and you are not limited to one squad robbing per day.  I've had 8 squads some days, now with each robbing locations, you'll be getting $4000 per day in about a week (it takes a week before most characters can pick locks reliably).  Jacking cars is more uncertain, but also quite lucrative.

The main use of the Loan Shark is when you need an Ace Attorney or base upgrade.  If you pick up some secrets, you really want a Printing Press at the end of the month.

As for money sinks, I think the safehouse upgrades are the most logical place to start.  Imagine if the idea of a "business front" were expanded upon to include the operation of a real business.  Or the building of a firing range (although most of the cost would be the soundproofing).  Maybe even an insanely large amount could go towards "neighborhood beutification", which would allow the safehouse to appear to be in a nicer neighborhood than it actually is.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

EuchreJack, the neighborhood beautification has given me an idea for the interface, for which I am very grateful.

Many people don't notice they can make infrastructure upgrades, because these upfcaien require that you tab the safehouse in question (which they may have never done) and press I. It occurs to me that you could put infrastructure on the main screen at the bottom with the other options, and let you select what to invest in (which safehouse, etc.) after that.

This would be easier than tabbing through safehouses, and it would enable additional investments beyond ones tied to your safehouses. This could also be used in a system to purchase new safehouses, bulk goods, or make other large expenses.

[Neonivek]

The Loanshark making you do illicit activities to pay it off would also be a good alternative payment.

[jasonred79]

LCS radio! 

Pretty expensive to set up, but draws heat like crazy ("where's the signal coming from?" "THERE!"), and additional signal boosters are also expensive.

In fact, you should do that for the liberal guardian too. I assume that at default the liberal guardian is actually just fliers or something. But you could pay a monthly fee to have it delivered statewide... or even nationwide, but freaking expensive; really strongly influences public opinion though.

Hire an Assasin! VERY expensive, but can potentially lead to snap elections/ new supreme justice/ whatever. This would be a HUGE boon to those players who have already turned the country L+ but are just waiting for elections etc etc. Done right, this could replace the usual "disband the LCS and wait 10 years" that often happens.

[Nobody1225]

Radio and superior newscasting sound like cool money-sinks.  (As do neighborhood beautification, firing ranges, secret escape tunnels, and self-destruct buttons for your free-standing hideouts.)

But the assassin...

We're the LCS.  Why should we pay someone else to kill Conservative swine for us?  Not that I'm opposed to killing huge public figures (uh, in game).  Not at all.  But an option to pay someone else to kill them should have close on its heels an option to send one of your truly badass liberals to do the job herself.

[jasonred79]

I'd like that, but the LCS is limited to 1 city, and we want to perform hits on people all over the country.
Maybe we could pay for their Air Fare or something.
Sending an assasin is easiest in terms of programming. Just give it a certain chance of success, a certain cost, not all that much coding. Compared to writing having one of your members make a trip there to perform the hit.

[EuchreJack]

Better idea: the LCS could pay for information on when the Conservative Heads are most vulnerable.

Glad my previous idea helped.  Sounds awesome.

[Capital Fish]

Just thought I'd post an update on how the loan sharks are going:

In response to fears/suggestions the interface for conversing and borrowing money has been slighty modified: You now get a warning and a chance to back out of the deal if you so desire.

There's a lot of "under the hood" stuff still left to do. There have been a few minor setbacks so far, but I'm learning most of this stuff on the fly, so that's bound to happen. I still need to set it up so that the game recognizes that borrowed money is different from regular money, that the borrowed money is payed back after a set period, as well as setting up a system for punishing people who can't pay. I'm planning on spending most of tonight poking around with the code, so hopefully I'll come up with a few fixes in that time.

I'm also thinking about changing how the loan shark characters themselves are handled. Currently, the work in the same way that gang members do. You walk around until you bump into one, you talk to them, and then you conduct your business. However, this insures that the sharks are randomly generated, and that you never encounter the same shark twice. I'm thinking it might be better if the loan sharks were handled in a similar manner to land lords. If anybody's got any thoughts on this, or any other ideas on how sharks should be handled, I'm very interested in hearing them.

That said, here are some shots of what you'll see when borrowing money: