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[Jude]

Please inform me of another form of English, then. Since you seem to have a list of them available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialects_of_English
I do indeed.

If you can present another uniform English and an argument as to why your arbitrary standards are better than Standard Written English's arbitrary standards, than I will join you in your quest to speak that language.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not saying that another variety of English has better standards. I'm saying ALL the standards are completely arbitrary and therefore there is no basis for saying one is more right than others

Wow, I apologize for choosing examples that were intentionally extreme in order to make sure the point got across. I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand the point I was making, and possibly understand how it applies in 'more realistic' situations. Shame on me for not assuming you'd take my examples as the only possible times miscommunication can occur due to improper grammar. I should have been more clear that I was using extreme examples off the top of my head in order to make a point, and that you would need to use your own brain to translate how that point applies in everyday communication.

A bad analogy is a bad analogy. Gimme a break.

Standard Written English is proper English.

1. What does proper mean
2. Says who

How many times do you want me to write that? Yeah, its arbitrary and not enforced by the will of god. But its all we got. If you can come up with a better consistent, organized standard for English then go for it! But right now thats the best option available since it is widely accepted, used, and it covers every aspect of the language.

That doesn't make it "right" any more than choosing to write Turkish with a modified Latin alphabet rather than a modified Arabic alphabet was "right." It was a change, and yes, it was for the sake of convenience and mutual understanding that everyone had to do it the same way. But saying one way was more "right" than the other just doesn't make any sense. Same with insisting that a standard form of English is somehow right.

Yeah, it makes sense to have a standardized form of the language that everyone uses but that has nothing to do with there being a 'right" or "proper" way of using it. In order for there to be a right way there would have to be some objective way of determining what is right. And there ain't.

And, please do not continue trying to force words in my mouth that I claim there is only one way to write in English.

I never did

I make the claim there is a 'proper' way to write in English. Whether you choose to use it or not is up to you. Obviously I do not write in proper English, look at my posts for evidence. But I understand I am not writing with proper grammar. If I were writing a formal, or important message I'd be sure to adjust myself to use only proper grammar.

Again, who says it's "proper?"

If/when you write/wrote a cover letter for a job, or perhaps and application to a school, I will assume you used Standard Written English? If not, please let me know and I'll apologize for assuming. If you did, then please explain to me how you can argue Standard Written English is not proper when you yourself use it?

I don't use it because it has some objective property of being "proper" (you keep throwing this word around like it has any substantial meaning, but it doesn't - all it means is that certain people think it's the best way), I do it because if I don't I won't be taken seriously. BY OTHER PEOPLE. IN THEIR SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENTS. That has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. "Proper" is a totally subjective judgment.

Also, different English-speaking countries have different rules of standard English. In Britain, they would say that "my way of speaking English is different to your way". In the US, I would say "my way of speaking English is different from your way." Which one's right? Which one's proper?

[Goron]

Ok. I admit defeat.
I guess with your interpretation of 'right' or 'proper' or 'standard' that in the absence of some mythical magical supreme force that somehow forces every entity in existence to think of something as 'proper' no standard can be such. Therefore there is no proper English. You are right.

I, on the other hand, consider a widely adopted, accepted, uniform standard taught in every single school in the country, to be considered 'proper'. I understand you do not and realize I cannot change your mind.

[qwertyuiopas]

The goal is understandable communication. When people invent new ways to speak and try to pass them off as the best new thing that beats everything else, that is taking it too far. Debating your favourite spellings is relatively meaningless as long as it doesn't impede communication.

[Jude]

Ok. I admit defeat.
I guess with your interpretation of 'right' or 'proper' or 'standard' that in the absence of some mythical magical supreme force that somehow forces every entity in existence to think of something as 'proper' no standard can be such. Therefore there is no proper English. You are right.

I, on the other hand, consider a widely adopted, accepted, uniform standard taught in every single school in the country, to be considered 'proper'. I understand you do not and realize I cannot change your mind.

OK but - does that mean your form of English is only proper in the US? Is a different form of English proper in the UK, in Australia, in India, in South Africa?

And just so you know, there is not a hard and fast set of rules for Standard English. Many things, probably most things, are agreed on, but lots and lots aren't and there are endless (masturbatory) debates on them. And it's constantly changing: 50 years ago, if you were referring to a hypothetical person of uncertain gender, you would just use the male pronoun "he". Now that's politically incorrect and so you might say, "them" or "he or she" or "s/he" or God knows what else. So which is proper? And 50 years ago you might have been called out for saying "Who should I give this book to?" Instead of "to whom should I give this book?" But now, the word "whom" is going out of usage by most people, and the rule about not putting prepositions at the end of a sentence (which was pretty contrived and artificial in the first place) is barely taught at all. So are those changes improper usage? or does the standard of propriety get updated to reflect usage? And if so, whose usage?

The point I'm making is that even "Standard English" is, first, just another dialect, albeit one nobody actually speaks in except while giving speeches or reading the news, and second, not standard or comprehensively and authoritatively defined anywhere.

@qwerty: Isn't it "taking it too far" when people make lists of picky, pedantic rules that nobody follows in actual usage, such as "don't put pronouns at the end of a sentence" and enforces them as if they are God-given commandments about how to speak?

Also, as for the argument that standard English is right because otherwise nobody could understand each other: Take a look at a sentence like "Half of the people reading this thread agree with me, the other half is like, 'this guy's full of shit.'"

And find me an English speaker who can't fully and easily comprehend the meaning of that sentence. That's one example of zillions...

[Nether]

As long as they talk as reasonable as I do I'm ok with it
Grammar = friend, not food!

[Makrond]

Some serious prescriptivism vs descriptivism going on in this thread.

You're both wrong by your own standards anyway so why bother?

[Jude]

You're both wrong by your own standards anyway so why bother?

Huh

[Makrond]

Prescriptivists can never ever adhere to the rules they set out 100% of the time no matter how hard they try and descriptivists have to draw a line in the sand and proclaim one side is intelligible and the other is not. This means there is no such thing as a prescriptivist or a descriptivist and such silly labels and arguments about what is correct use of English and what is not are futile when nobody is really in a position to enact change or even influence others' opinions.

I'm personally far more interested in seeing where English develops from where it is now than worrying about what's right, and far too involved in the process of change to worry about people trying to quantify a concept as fluid as language.

[Jude]

descriptivists have to draw a line in the sand and proclaim one side is intelligible and the other is not.

Huh? No they don't

I'm personally far more interested in seeing where English develops from where it is now than worrying about what's right, and far too involved in the process of change to worry about people trying to quantify a concept as fluid as language.

I mean, that's pretty much part of descriptivism

[Musluk]

hai guise wutz goin dwon hear?

English isn't my native tongue. I've got drilled with 'the difference between their/there/they're' etc so much that I cringe every time I see those. But I can't blame the native speakers, they sound almost the same anyhow and they learned the language as speech patterns first, unlike me.

[Euld]

Apparently, this thread shows up on Google if you search 'Heil Grammar.' 

[Jude]

I wonder how many people search "heil grammar" annually

[Cheddarius]

I don't think there's any rational reason to be a Grammar Nazi.
Yet I am.

My thinking goes like this:

All right. Maybe spelling and grammar isn't important. If I can understand you, the language has done its job. I get that.
But it annoys me when you spell badly. And is it really that hard? If you're tapping your foot, there's no rational reason I should be annoyed by that. Yet as a common courtesy, you should stop doing it if it annoys people. Same with spelling and grammar.

[buckets]

I'm pretty bad with spelling, but that's mostly because I'm pretty heavily dyslexic. I try though, I'll read through what I'm writing a few times, plus I'll throw shit through spell checkers.

But nothing set my rage to level ten like a spelling nazi. I'm sorry but I've had years and years of people going "ZOMG learn to spell lol!", and it has gotten less and less funny each time.

[Cheddarius]

Firefox has an auto-spell check, I believe. It underlines wrongly spelled words in red. I find it very helpful.