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[LegoLord]

Gee, how about you do your own research, Jude? IŽll be damned if I spend any significant ammount of time digging article references on a subject I already passed, to convince a guy I don't even know, on a topic about which I care only marginally.

:Shrug: OK well since it's pretty much common knowledge that weed doesn't cause psychosis the burden of proof is on you, but yeah if you don't care about the topic (understandable...I sure wouldn't dig up articles for an internet debate) then don't bother

There are a lot of things that are "common knowledge" that are actually, as any respectable scientific study would show, dead wrong.  The first that comes to mind might not be appropriate to mention here, though, and my brain feels a little fried right now.  I'm sure someone else can come up with better examples with hardly an effort.

Additionally, he did not say that marijuana caused Schizophrenia, merely that it would mildly accelerate the progression of a pre-existing condition.

[Jude]

Gee, how about you do your own research, Jude? IŽll be damned if I spend any significant ammount of time digging article references on a subject I already passed, to convince a guy I don't even know, on a topic about which I care only marginally.

:Shrug: OK well since it's pretty much common knowledge that weed doesn't cause psychosis the burden of proof is on you, but yeah if you don't care about the topic (understandable...I sure wouldn't dig up articles for an internet debate) then don't bother

There are a lot of things that are "common knowledge" that are actually, as any respectable scientific study would show, dead wrong.  The first that comes to mind might not be appropriate to mention here, though, and my brain feels a little fried right now.  I'm sure someone else can come up with better examples with hardly an effort.

I'm talking about common knowledge among those who have studied it.

Additionally, he did not say that marijuana caused Schizophrenia, merely that it would mildly accelerate the progression of a pre-existing condition.

Well, yeah but that's also positing a connection exists. In the absence of any evidence it makes the most sense to assume a connection does NOT exist - otherwise we would be compelled to assume all sorts of outlandish things simply because there is no proof of their absence.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Marijuana is illegal because hemp is a superior paper making material and paper companies at the time feared it eating away at lucrative contracts with lumbermills.

I thought it was the cotton lobby. Hemp fibre can be processed into a good replacement for cotton, and it's cheaper.

You can throw in the booze industry too, who didn't want the competition. And pot was particularly common among racial minorities. Really a perfect storm of corruption and bigotry, if you think about it. :3


As far as the schizophrenia link, I can recall reading about one highly suspect study in the UK that yielded, if I remember correctly, a positive correlation, albeit within the range of error for the sample size. Might be wrong though, and I'm certainly not going to try to guess where I read it, and go looking for it.

[Qloos]

Black people commit a lot more crimes than other ethnic groups.

Provide a source before you say another word.

Are you really gonna dispute that

I'll revise it to say "within the US, per capita"

and obviously race is not the causal factor

and if you still dont' believe me then I'll tell you that blacks are incarcerated at a far higher rate and we'll use that as the analogy instead

Black people are incarcerated at a higher rate because they are persecuted against by the court system.  They have a much higher conviction rate for petty drug related crimes than while people.

[MrWiggles]

Black people commit a lot more crimes than other ethnic groups.

Provide a source before you say another word.

Are you really gonna dispute that

I'll revise it to say "within the US, per capita"

and obviously race is not the causal factor

and if you still dont' believe me then I'll tell you that blacks are incarcerated at a far higher rate and we'll use that as the analogy instead

Black people are incarcerated at a higher rate because they are persecuted against by the court system.  They have a much higher conviction rate for petty drug related crimes than while people.

Its not ethencity per se, as education and poverty. The undereducated and poor get into more crimes and convicted crimes. This isn't because more affluent can buy better protection, as court appointed attorneys dont suck, but because they commit more crimes. What would be an interesting conversion would be cultural that devalue education and crime rates. 

[Jude]

Black people commit a lot more crimes than other ethnic groups.

Provide a source before you say another word.

Are you really gonna dispute that

I'll revise it to say "within the US, per capita"

and obviously race is not the causal factor

and if you still dont' believe me then I'll tell you that blacks are incarcerated at a far higher rate and we'll use that as the analogy instead

Black people are incarcerated at a higher rate because they are persecuted against by the court system.

That may or may not be true

But in any case if you're poor you tend to commit more crimes and more black people are poor than other races hence black people commit more crimes

but being black does not cause you to commit crimes

similiarly, if you have mental illness you tend to use drugs to self medicate but this is not a reason to assume the drugs caused the illness

[LegoLord]

similiarly, if you have mental illness you tend to use drugs to self medicate but this is not a reason to assume the drugs caused the illness

But that's a bad analogy because, I say once more, that is not what was said.  It was not said that marijuana causes a mental illness.  It is an important distinction to make because general rules of the human brain functions aren't necessarily constant in every case of mental illness.  It was suggested that a brain with already altered function might react differently to marijuana than a healthy brain.  Similarly, a person with AB+ blood might react differently to an infusion of O+ blood than a person with AB- blood would.  Granted the nature of the beast is different in that situation than in the brain chemistry.

[Jude]

similiarly, if you have mental illness you tend to use drugs to self medicate but this is not a reason to assume the drugs caused the illness

But that's a bad analogy because, I say once more, that is not what was said.  It was not said that marijuana causes a mental illness.  It is an important distinction to make because general rules of the human brain functions aren't necessarily constant in every case of mental illness.  It was suggested that a brain with already altered function might react differently to marijuana than a healthy brain.  Similarly, a person with AB+ blood might react differently to an infusion of O+ blood than a person with AB- blood would.  Granted the nature of the beast is different in that situation than in the brain chemistry.

Yeah, but a person who's grown up in black culture might react differently to poverty than a person who's grown up in white culture...it's a fine analogy.

In any case, like I said before, the burden of proof is always on the position that something DOES exist or happen, since if you accept things exist without proof, there is no basis for not accepting the existence of anything you care to name, from unicorns to spaghetti monsters. Skepticism is the key

[codezero]

You smoke it for an effect you'll be concious of, things are felt more intensly, and if you are awkard or paranoid to begin with, you may start believing the reason for that paranoia, but the choice to ignore remains, and so paranoid people will still smoke, the reasons might be felt more intensly, but at heart the people don't believe in them anymore than when sober.

[Jude]

Huh?

[Greatoliver]

Concerning the discussion whether cannabis does actually aggravate mental problems, there is no firm evidence that would lead people to believe it does, hence why there is discussion still for it to be legalised.  If there was research to show that it did, then people would not discuss this, unless they were ignorant.

Of course, this means that it can't be said to certainly not aggravate mental illnesses.  There has been correlation with schizophrenia with cannabis, with heavy users having a generally higher occurance of it.  Certainly, it seems as if cannabis can give a higher chance of developing a mental illness, or make a condition worse.

Supposedly one of the most effective ways to get THC into your body is to inhale the vapour, which does not get as much THC out of the plant, but does not introduce the byproducts that smoking does.  For this reason, if vapourised, there are few health problems, but I think even so it may still give a higher chance of mouth cancer or the like... I'm not sure, but basically, it's not without it's detrimental effects.

[Earthquake Damage]

basically, it's not without it's detrimental effects.

But are those detrimental effects so terrible that we should ban or strictly control it?

Fast food has known detrimental effects:  High fat, high cholesterol, high sodium, blah blah blah.  It's not exactly healthy yet remains available (to minors, even!).  And no, I won't go into great detail about tobacco and alcohol.  Others in this thread have and will likely continue to do that. 

[Jude]

Of course, this means that it can't be said to certainly not aggravate mental illnesses.  There has been correlation with schizophrenia with cannabis, with heavy users having a generally higher occurance of it.  Certainly, it seems as if cannabis can give a higher chance of developing a mental illness, or make a condition worse.

OH MY GOD CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION

[Earthquake Damage]

OH MY GOD CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION

If you'll stop chanting your mantra long enough to actually think, you might realize that correlation suggests a possible causal connection and that further study might clarify the issue.

"X occurs with Y more often than X occurs without Y."
"ZOMG CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION"

In this case, either people prone to paranoid schizophrenia tend toward marijuana use or marijuana use aggravates existing tendencies toward paranoid schizophrenia.  This assumes, of course, that the correlation is statistically significant, but I'll just make that assumption since I doubt anyone would bother mentioning it otherwise.

[MrWiggles]

I've tried looking for the study or a resource on this, and I havent found it.

Anyone know where to get it?