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Author Topic: Socialistic overhaul  (Read 4304 times)

Creaca

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 09:38:55 am »

Why not simply link everyone's brains together using a massive network. Absolutely everyone in the world is perfectly aware what everyone else is capable of, and also has intimate knowledge of them. Individuality ceases to exist, but everyone is equal and ceaselessly works together for the greater good of the whole.


...And then afterwards, we could use machines parts to improve on members of the collective, and build vast cube spaceships so that we could visit other planets and envelope them into the collective.

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Zangi

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 09:39:48 am »

Sounds pretty nice. 

Basically give the poor and homeless the equivalent of spam or military rations.  I like it.  They get food and if they want any better, they'll have to work for it. 
And its for the very cheap people like me, I can go a few days out of a week with this stuff and be able to keep my money... 

I'd suggest free housing be similar to a hostel...  No private rooms, but you get a roof and a bunk.  Really, build it like a warehouse with like... 4 or 6 bathrooms...  Have 'house leaders' set up a few simple social events every week.  And yea, build communities out of it.
Compared to providing private housing/apartments, this is cheap and much more space sufficient...

Why not simply link everyone's brains together using a massive network. Absolutely everyone in the world is perfectly aware what everyone else is capable of, and also has intimate knowledge of them. Individuality ceases to exist, but everyone is equal and ceaselessly works together for the greater good of the whole.


...And then afterwards, we could use machines parts to improve on members of the collective, and build vast cube spaceships so that we could visit other planets and envelope them into the collective.


  I'll pass on the hive mind fad.
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Creaca

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 09:54:08 am »

  I'll pass on the hive mind fad.

Hey, if it worked, you'd have a Utopian Socialist government.

Far better than a Hive, since a hive always evolves something fat that spits out babys and pheromones for control. This isn't so much control as forced empathy for every human on earth. If you're completely aware of someone, their past, their dreams, their failings and fears, you couldn't shortchange or kill them anymore than you could yourself.

I couldn't resist the Borg joke, but seriously if technology gets sufficiently advanced you'd have a perfectly fair system of government.
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Zangi

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 10:34:56 am »

  I'll pass on the hive mind fad.

Hey, if it worked, you'd have a Utopian Socialist government.

Far better than a Hive, since a hive always evolves something fat that spits out babys and pheromones for control. This isn't so much control as forced empathy for every human on earth. If you're completely aware of someone, their past, their dreams, their failings and fears, you couldn't shortchange or kill them anymore than you could yourself.

I couldn't resist the Borg joke, but seriously if technology gets sufficiently advanced you'd have a perfectly fair system of government.
I know.  But... over my dead body.

As for tech advancement, the 'gov't' will be rigged to keep a certain group of people as the leaders.  One way or another...  It'll probably be done beforehand and you wouldn't know until you are in it.  Then you would be compelled to follow the 'collective' will.... and not speak of this corruption.

Pessimistic view... but I wouldn't trust humanity with shit like this.


As for non-collective... technology is not going to make things more fair.  Humanity will find a way to corrupt it.
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Starver

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 11:18:42 am »

First off, without incentive to drag oneself off of the "given enough to live" level, you do end up with problems already mentioned about people happy to 'stay where they are'.  From a UK perspective, there are the 'chavs' and 'sink estates' and "Shameless" mentality (ref: UK TV show) and a story in today's paper about a mother of six who has somehow (this article is short on detail) found herself emplaced in a £2million house in London, with rent of £1,600/week paid for by the Housing Benefit scheme.  Although admitedly the OP's original premise looks like it would at least work against this latter case and stop such strangeness.


Government funded education isn't charity, its a investment. Having a educated workforce to export skilled labour and import unskilled labour is what separates economic super powers from developing countries. The only reason the United states can have such a poor education system is by being a strong enough economy to attract skills from all over the world.
My reply to this point, though, which is why I'm sticking my nose in, is that Government-mandated education beyond secondary level (i.e. Higher and Further education: which is Colleges and Unis in the UK although I know the USA "College" isn't the same as ours) has problems like saying "We're short of engineers!  Give incentives for students wanting to qualify as engineers!" then flooding the system a few years later with a whole lot of engineering 'graduates' of vastly varying ability but all with pieces of paper, meaning that the engineers we need are smothered by a whole lot of others who were good enough to pass the exams but haven't the same calling.  And about this time someone decided that there's a shortage of nurses, so implements incentives for nursing which similarly backfire at about the time someone else tries to correct a lack of teachers by the same method...  And each fresh new government (or just before each set of parliamentry or local elections) swaps and changes it how it feels like, having used the glut to bash their predecesors.

On the other hand, with a completely free hand, you end up with something like the oft-ridiculed "Media Studies" glut of recent years.  (Though in my day, it was Art Students who were the supposed 'free wheelers' through education, and some of the 'soft sciences' fulfill both this and the "we need <foo>!" mentality mentioned above.)  Today, I'm sure "doin' somefing wiv compooters" is an attractive option.  And though the latter, especially, might cause me problems as they're invading my chosen field and reducing my own opportunities, I must clarify that I'm not suggesting that the fields themselves, or even a majority of the students in them, are 'easy option, back-of-the-cereal-box' in any way, just a distillation of the perceptions that can be made (and often spouted by everyone from left-wing comedians to right wing media).

Also, insert whatever job-types you feel like in there, though.  Engineers/Nurses/Teachers was just an example, and probably in no way connected to reality.



So.  Solutions?  I'd go down the road of a hybrid Apprenticeship scheme.  Make it so that companies can (with appropriate support and guarantees, especially in the case of smaller businesses) commit to taking on an unqualified person direct from leaving compulsory education (who passes some appropriate aptitude tests, and expresses a genuine interest in the role) and allow company and apprentice to 'invest' time in each other.  And it should be open to all businesses, from silversmithing to funereal services, from architecture to... well, computer support.

I suppose you could tweak it a little to try to encourage a little bit of new-blood (hopefully not literealy, remembering H&S at all times) into industries such as farming, where the average ages severely need to rebalanced by a slew of keen youngsters, but supply and demand (though not in a capitalistic manner) ought to be able to help that balanced[1] without forcing unwilling youngsters into fields, or forcing the adoption of unsuitable candidates from the company's POV.  If I'm not sounding a little Utopian in my all-too-briefly sketched ideas.




[1] As a caveat, I do acknowledge that if an industry (like farming or 'Little Mester'-style metalworking workshops) gets below a certain level of existing presence, this reduces the number of potential placements to below the usually viable degree, even if you allow doubling-up on apprenticeships and can somehow support that.  I have a few ideas about what to do about that (e.g. the way that stone-masonry and other largely extinct arts are 'rediscovered' and reinvigorated by medieval cathedrals who gather together what experts there are in the field and build a team to re-learn and implement anew the old skills in an authentic manner, with both practical artisans and academic eyes involved), but they would need to be finessed a little to be actually workable.  OTOH, at the top-end, apprenticeship opportunities in some bloated field (e.g. call centres) would be proportionately less than the current workforce, and might even be exempt/overlooked given the nature of the in-the-job-training that's already carried out.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 12:19:34 pm »

Good luck ever selling that idea to America. We aren't even willing to pass health care reform because....actually, I have no idea why not, other than that people hate the president for being black.

Weren't you just getting all bent out of shape over other people simplifying complicated situations to a hilariously retarded degree?
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 01:15:45 pm »

government-sponsored/subsidized vocational training i.e. "Apprenticeship"

That's probably a much better idea than subsidizing (or paying entirely for) a university education.  It's more practical in that it aims to prepare the general populace for work the general populace is actually more likely to do.  Jobs that are academic in nature, or that at least require a high degree of education (e.g. medical doctors), make up a minority of the workforce.  We really don't need that many mathematicians and lawyers (there're too many of 'em as is :P ).  The most necessary jobs, the ones we need the most people doing, generally require less skill and education.  Training 30% of the population as engineers and philosophers isn't very helpful when related jobs only make up let's say 2% of the workforce.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 01:17:19 pm by Earthquake Damage »
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eerr

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 03:21:40 pm »

Your mom is a socialistic overhaul.


The theory of socialism is just as good as the theory of capitalism.

You know that right?

With all of that stuff assumed together, you're talking about theory, not practice.

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MrWiggles

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 05:29:38 pm »

Negative Income Tax Model, or Minimum Income Tax Model.
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Fooj

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 06:04:49 pm »

Quote
The theory of socialism is just as good as the theory of capitalism.

You know that right?

With all of that stuff assumed together, you're talking about theory, not practice.
Pretty much.

Quote
Negative Income Tax Model, or Minimum Income Tax Model.
Kind of, but I don't trust people with money. IMO, most people in hard times are in hard times because they're stupid with their money. I guess I still need to pull up some statistics on that, but that is my general perspective.

Found something. Thanks for the term Wiggles.
Quote
A series of studies in the United States beginning in 1968 attempted to test for effects on work incentives. The studies showed minimal disincentives, but were difficult to analyze, as the monetary benefits were rarely as generous as those already received through the traditional welfare system.
This should have more or less the same results for freeloaders as that then, given this directly replaces welfare money in what would probably be a similar amount. As I don't trust stupid people with money, the government regulation of what welfare is spent on and the rationing of it would take away the responsibility from where it's abused.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 06:23:13 pm »

Socialism on paper sounds fucking awesome, in practice, kinda of not. 8/
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Fooj

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2010, 06:26:48 pm »

Quote
Socialism on paper sounds fucking awesome, in practice, kinda of not. 8/
Yep, responsibility abused in government rather than with citizens. Thing is, responsibility will be abused wherever you put it. Though in this case I just wanted to put a small segment of money in more capable hands than boozehounds. It's a very minimalistic application of socialism, which is the idea. I'm not by any means a supporter of serious socialism.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2010, 06:28:39 pm »

Quote
Socialism on paper sounds fucking awesome, in practice, kinda of not. 8/
Yep, responsibility abused in government rather than with citizens. Thing is, responsibility will be abused wherever you put it. Though in this case I just wanted to put a small segment of money in more capable hands than boozehounds. It's a very minimalistic application of socialism, which is the idea. I'm not by any means a supporter of serious socialism.

Also, socialism is very expensive in term of resources and economy while having no native tools to foster growth of either.
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Heron TSG

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2010, 08:29:40 pm »

Andorra doesn't need taxes, and it's totally capitalist. The reasoning is that everybody in Andorra has at least one job, and they still need more people. Therefore, Spanish and French people go to Andorra to grab a near-guaranteed job.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Socialistic overhaul
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2010, 08:36:43 pm »

Andorra doesn't need taxes, and it's totally capitalist. The reasoning is that everybody in Andorra has at least one job, and they still need more people. Therefore, Spanish and French people go to Andorra to grab a near-guaranteed job.

That an interesting microcosms.
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