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[Kilo24]

I'm afraid that I don't have much to add save for a generic "I Support This Suggestion!"

Creating another high-tech (so to speak) industry won't be a bad idea, for when the fortress's wealth gets worked out from being focused in minced dwarven ale and buying out each trade caravan isn't a foregone conclusion after year 3 or so.

How would you see the skills working out for this?  Just making a new "Pottery" skill?

And about DF's sand, maybe it's just considered to be there but not be significant unless it is of the right consistency for farming/glassmaking.  *shrug*

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, in DF you could grind down any stone to create "sand".
DF sand is unique in that it is always the correct mix for every application - like glassmaking. =)

Then perhaps I should be more specific: I am not creating sand, I am creating a ground "stone powder".  Which stones would be suitable?

Feldspar is a flux material at these temperatures.

I'm asking if adding those materials (Na, K, Ca) by adding salt or potash or other materials to a mix will make it more suitable for any given reaction?

Basically that's what is is.
DF is just strange in that there are areas without sand.
On this planet, if there are any minerals whatsoever, there will be sand.

Even on the moon - without any water or atmosphere for erosion - you have sand.
(thermal erosion works if you're not in a hurry =)

Yes, but we're working in DF, and I'm trying to find substitutes.  What kinds of stones make a reasonable substitutes for the "right sand"?

[Gazz]

There is no such thing as simple substitutes.
Replacing one material changes a minimum of 2 variables, usually 3-4, which then requires adjustment of 2-3 other materials.

Feldspars, quartz, and clay minerals are the lowest common denominator in pottery.
(and common in more than one sense)
Without any clay, you're not doing any pottery.
Without feldspars and quartz.... you're living on a gas giant or an ice meteorite?

Replacing materials based on their chemical and mineralogical analysis is also centuries beyond a medieval level of technology.
Yes, I could. Part of the trade and all that.
But using DF to teach players the Seger formula so they can understand why material X replaces 5 % of material A, 12% of material B, and adds another unwanted component on top of it which then has to be taken care of? And why some kind of rock should be "acidic" when it doesn't even dissolve when thrown into water?

Here is a "glaze" crash course and I hope there will never be anything like that in DF. =)
www.matrix2000.co.nz/GlazeTeach/Index.htm

[NW_Kohaku]

There is no such thing as simple substitutes.
Replacing one material changes a minimum of 2 variables, usually 3-4, which then requires adjustment of 2-3 other materials.

Feldspars, quartz, and clay minerals are the lowest common denominator in pottery.
(and common in more than one sense)
Without any clay, you're not doing any pottery.
Without feldspars and quartz.... you're living on a gas giant or an ice meteorite?

Replacing materials based on their chemical and mineralogical analysis is also centuries beyond a medieval level of technology.
Yes, I could. Part of the trade and all that.
But using DF to teach players the Seger formula so they can understand why material X replaces 5 % of material A, 12% of material B, and adds another unwanted component on top of it which then has to be taken care of? And why some kind of rock should be "acidic" when it doesn't even dissolve when thrown into water?

Here is a "glaze" crash course and I hope there will never be anything like that in DF. =)
www.matrix2000.co.nz/GlazeTeach/Index.htm

That's not what I'm talking about, I'm just asking for a "Good enough for army work" jury rigged system, not a way to chemically alter something to work. 

In this game, sand is always just the right kind of sand.  Are there mineral combinations that's just plain close enough that you can look the other way, or that, if you got "really lucky", as you like to put it, would be the right combinations?

Basically, is there a possible rock or combination of rocks that you can grind down into sand-substitute would be close enough?

[Andeerz]

That's not what I'm talking about, I'm just asking for a "Good enough for army work" jury rigged system, not a way to chemically alter something to work. 

In this game, sand is always just the right kind of sand.  Are there mineral combinations that's just plain close enough that you can look the other way, or that, if you got "really lucky", as you like to put it, would be the right combinations?

Basically, is there a possible rock or combination of rocks that you can grind down into sand-substitute would be close enough?

Wait, I think the question was already answered earlier.  If the sand isn't available, then just grind down the appropriate rock to make its respective sand.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but wouldn't the rock and its corresponding sand have roughly the same composition?  Also, perhaps the game should just simply incorporate more soils/minerals/sands/etc. and have mineral, soil, and sand types/distribution better modeled.  That would solve the raw-material side of things, no? 

Also, how did the Chinese do it way back when?  I'm assuming this is the process we'd be modeling here in DF.  Did the feldspathic minerals and kaolin they use come from sources where they were naturally found in forms desirable for porcelain making?  Was any processing needed prior to use in making the hard paste for their porcelain?  I'd imagine that the industry of porcelain back then was highly dependent upon finding pure enough kaolin deposits, no?
   

[Gazz]

I'd imagine that the industry of porcelain back then was highly dependent upon finding pure enough kaolin deposits, no?

The word kaolin is derived from the deposit in Jiangxi and simply means high hill.
I'm no historian, though. =)

It is assumed that it had just the right composition to be usable with little to no preparation. Luck is an important factor when dealing with natural resources.

But noone travels to some barren place and then goes "hey, let's make pottery!".
You do that if you have the materials available, not the other way around.

Depending on the clay/loam/kaolin deposit you might have to add quartz or some feldspar - or nothing at all.

The "big three" feldspars are orthoclase, albite, anorthite but instead of the first two you practically always get "alkali feldspar" (there are some other terms, too) which is a compound of orthoclase and albite in varying composition.
Those are the most common rocks you find and what you use for jury rigging your pottery.

And you don't create sand. You use the sand you inevitably find at these deposits.
Either the DF world generation needs to change so you do find the most common sands regularly - or you use DF Magic Sand™, which always has the right chemical composition for whatever you need.
Right now it is magical. On our world you can't just grab some sand and start making glass from it. Might as well use that special quality for pottery. =P

[NW_Kohaku]

Yes, but all this isn't answering my question, which is, "what stones produce the right sand?" 

[Aachen]

Which stone is the most magic?

Seriously, I think the thrust of things are that /no/ stone is what you're looking for; you might as well just pick whatever sounds coolest. I vote microcline. People like to complain about it.

[NW_Kohaku]

Yeah, I'm pretty much leaning toward telling people to just mix orthoclase or microcline (which occur EVERYWHERE) with some other stone like granite.

Still, I'm hoping that if I ask enough times with enough subtle variations, someone will give me a straight answer to the question "Which stone is closest to the right kind of sand?"

[Kilo24]

Actually, to just pop out an idea, if you claim that dwarves have a better understanding of geological composition than historical humans did, you could try to justify a powered-sand-making contraption that would take stones/metal and grind them up to a good composition for high-quality glass/porcelain-crafting.

That would give some more use to the sheer amount of stones that a fortress has as well as give a bit better explanation for the mysteriously suitable sand composition.  They wouldn't need an advanced understanding of modern chemistry; they could easily have some faulty theory that works as far as it's been tested (and dwarves doing a lot of random stuff with rocks certainly makes thematic sense.)

[NW_Kohaku]

Actually, to just pop out an idea, if you claim that dwarves have a better understanding of geological composition than historical humans did, you could try to justify a powered-sand-making contraption that would take stones/metal and grind them up to a good composition for high-quality glass/porcelain-crafting.

That would give some more use to the sheer amount of stones that a fortress has as well as give a bit better explanation for the mysteriously suitable sand composition.  They wouldn't need an advanced understanding of modern chemistry; they could easily have some faulty theory that works as far as it's been tested (and dwarves doing a lot of random stuff with rocks certainly makes thematic sense.)

Yes, that's what I'm aiming for, but I'm still trying to figure out which stones are close enough for jazz concerning glass making.

[Andeerz]

Depending on the clay/loam/kaolin deposit you might have to add quartz or some feldspar - or nothing at all.

...

Those are the most common rocks you find and what you use for jury rigging your pottery.

And you don't create sand. You use the sand you inevitably find at these deposits.
Either the DF world generation needs to change so you do find the most common sands regularly - or you use DF Magic Sand™, which always has the right chemical composition for whatever you need.
Right now it is magical. On our world you can't just grab some sand and start making glass from it. Might as well use that special quality for pottery. =P

I vote world gen needs to change... but about your comments:

1.  When you say "add quartz or feldspar", is that something historically done back in the day, or is it something done in modernity?

2.  When you say "jury rigging", do you mean jury rigging as the previous posts are suggesting for Fortress mode?

3.  And about the sand being at the deposits, do you mean ANYWHERE you find kaolin, feldspathic rocks, quartz, etc. you WILL find its corresponding sand?

BTW: if sand composition is roughly the same as its parent rock, I would not put it past dwarfs to possibly have sand making machines.    But if the answer to 3 is "yes", then these machines would be absolutely not needed or hardly needed ever.

[Impaler[WrG]]

All rocks and hence sands can broadly categorized on a scale which reflects density and chemical composition.  The light rocks are called Felsic and tend to be light in color, the heavier one Mafic and tend to be darker.  Raw sand will chemically match its parent rock but as it is washed down a river its composition will become more Felsic as the Mafic minerals dissolve until only the most Felsic minerals are left.  What we call 'beach sand' is pure quartz the most Felsic mineral.  Feldspar is the next most Felsic mineral so the Feldspar/Quartz combination will be found in significantly eroded sand or sand derived from very felsic parent rock, but not pure beach sand.  Given the games current color based sand system I'd say white sand is Limestone/coral, Yellow is pure quartz, red sand would be quartz/feldspar mix, and black sand would be Mafic rocks that are low in quartz/feldspar.

[ronnyfire]

These (http://www.abana.org/resources/discus/messages/273/1163.jpg) are what i use when i blacksmith, and they blow a ton of air.

I wonder if anything like these would work for your super hot furnaces (maybe have an extra dwarf cranking it (screwpump style) so the other dwarf can harness the heat)

Its a fairly simple, but effective system(and a hell of a workout if your pumping the thing for a long while xD)

Edit: Generally while blacksmithing, you dont gotta get this spinning that fast to generate a lot of wind, but if you really crank the thing hard im sure you could put out some massive amount of air, especially if you modify the gear ratio a little ;]

[Andeerz]

Impaler:  Ooo!  Neeeet.  Where did you find this info?  I would love to read up on this stuff meself!    I wonder if the sand Gazz is talking about is the raw sand you are talking about, since it seems that Gazz mentioned that sand being found near its parent rock deposits.

Ronny:  Ooo!  Neeeet!  That's a hella-dwarfy apparatus!  I wanna learn how to be a blacksmith...  you in the southwest USA perchance?