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Author Topic: Volcanic Lightning  (Read 2355 times)

burned

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Volcanic Lightning
« on: February 10, 2010, 12:51:20 pm »

I saw this posted on boingboing today:http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap100210.html

Why lightning occurs even in common thunderstorms remains a topic of research, and the cause of volcanic lightning is even less clear. Surely, lightning bolts help quench areas of opposite but separated electric charges. One hypothesis holds that catapulting magma bubbles or volcanic ash are themselves electrically charged, and by their motion create these separated areas. Other volcanic lightning episodes may be facilitated by charge-inducing collisions in volcanic dust.

I thought it was pretty neat and what better place, than this forum, to share it?

edit: The picture is awesome, but there is a video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3aqFCT87_E
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 01:45:21 pm by burned »
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Jude

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 01:42:12 pm »

Holy shit. Dwarven electric power.
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Morgus

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 01:53:55 pm »

You mean like this, surely, instead?

That's in Chili, btw. Picture came from NatGeo.

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RedKing

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 01:57:33 pm »

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burned

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 02:10:15 pm »

I feel like I lurk a lot on these forums, but totally missed that thread, RedKing, thanks!

That's definitely a superior picture.

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The process of delving into the black abyss is to me the keenest form of fascination. - H. P. Lovecraft
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Noble Digger

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 04:16:21 pm »

When heated sufficiently, air becomes ionized (read: it conducts electricity better). On top of that, all the molten rock and minerals are probably undergoing some type of ferrofluid interactions or maybe even piezoelectricity, and the molten rock itself is probably a great source of grounding for atmospheric charge. remember that lightning strikes when a body of negative charge (which means an excess of electrons in a semi-closed system) becomes connected with a body of relatively-less-negative (or Positive) charge, and the electrons travel to a place of equilibrium. While our eyes see lightning striking from the top down, the reverse is actually occurring. The Earth is an enormous standing pool of negative charge, lightning strikes send some of that negative charge into the atmosphere to balance positively-charged clouds, which have shed their electrons due to frictional forces inside between dust particles and such.

Back on volcanoes, it makes a lot of sense, a volcano is a huge hole in the ground filled with boiling rock from which a massive column of ionized air and gases rise. Huge amounts of turmoil and heat and friction take place down below. I wonder if a volcano is capable of building up a positive charge inside due to whatever physics are involved, making these "reverse" lightning strikes, or if they are conventional strikes (negative charge in the earth moving upward to the atmosphere)

It has always confused me that the term "negative" refers to an excess, while the term "positive" refers to a shortage.
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quib·ble
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial distinctions and objections.
2. To find fault or criticize for petty reasons; cavil.

sweitx

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 04:50:15 pm »

When heated sufficiently, air becomes ionized (read: it conducts electricity better). On top of that, all the molten rock and minerals are probably undergoing some type of ferrofluid interactions or maybe even piezoelectricity, and the molten rock itself is probably a great source of grounding for atmospheric charge. remember that lightning strikes when a body of negative charge (which means an excess of electrons in a semi-closed system) becomes connected with a body of relatively-less-negative (or Positive) charge, and the electrons travel to a place of equilibrium. While our eyes see lightning striking from the top down, the reverse is actually occurring. The Earth is an enormous standing pool of negative charge, lightning strikes send some of that negative charge into the atmosphere to balance positively-charged clouds, which have shed their electrons due to frictional forces inside between dust particles and such.

Back on volcanoes, it makes a lot of sense, a volcano is a huge hole in the ground filled with boiling rock from which a massive column of ionized air and gases rise. Huge amounts of turmoil and heat and friction take place down below. I wonder if a volcano is capable of building up a positive charge inside due to whatever physics are involved, making these "reverse" lightning strikes, or if they are conventional strikes (negative charge in the earth moving upward to the atmosphere)

It has always confused me that the term "negative" refers to an excess, while the term "positive" refers to a shortage.
Well, an electron carries a negative charge.  So negative imply an excess of electrons.  While positive implies that there's a shortage of electron.
Or you could think of "holes".  Negative is a shortage of holes (not enough space for electron to move into), while positive charge is an excess of "holes" (there's are enough spaces for MORE electron to move into).
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Keizo

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 06:05:42 pm »

While our eyes see lightning striking from the top down, the reverse is actually occurring.

Oh boy! Nerdy discussions. I can't get enough of these.

I think according to something I read a while ago, there are two kinds of lightning, positive and negative. I think what you're describing here is positive lightning. I believe negative lightning is also possible.

Moreover I thought the bolt isn't really one directional; it occurs simeultaneously in the entire space of the circuit formed. Just like how when I took physics, the teacher told us that electrons don't actually "move" along the wire; just the "charge" does. So electrons don't move anywhere in lightning, charge moves, right?

I'm just trying to clarify, you may already know all this but the way you wrote that made it sound incorrect to me.
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Ayeohx

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 07:11:27 pm »

Holy crap, we gotta start colonizing space.  Seriously, with the Discovery Channel talking about planet killing comets & asteroids & super-volcanoes and now lightning volcanoes...
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Noble Digger

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 11:18:26 pm »

Ahhh, that's actually a very good way of thinking about it. Positive lightning  should be possible, I just haven't heard of it myself. I've also seen lightning that strikes upward from one cloud to another so the reverse should be equally possible too (one cloud striking another one downward). I'm calling them clouds but I guess they ought to be referred to as bodies of charged air or something else.

As for the issue of the motion of electrons, I personally don't know on that bit. I know that in a wire, there are two types of current. Direct Current is a model in which the electrons are actually being pushed through the wire like it's a water pipe. This is extremely inefficient and lots of heat loss occurs. The reason Westinghouse's DC current lost out to Nikola Tesla's Alternating Current was largely based around efficiency: beyond a certain distance, sending DC power to residental customers is about as efficient as the water company piping hot water to your house.

In an AC circuit the electrons aren't pushed from point to point, rather they effectively vibrate back and forth at 60hz (depends where you live) and do very little traveling despite being energized, so there is less heat\friction. My understanding is that if the power is to be used in a digital device, some form of semiconductor (such as a polarized capacitor) and\or a transformer are needed to groom the current, turning it into DC current, whereas it's used directly as AC current if it's simply powering a large motor such as a vacuum cleaner.

Since a lightning strike can fuse sand into glass, explode a 3-foot-thick tree like a bomb blast, and creates an auditory report heard beyond the horizon line, it doesn't seem improbable to me that the electrons rushing through the air and other substances are responsible for this destructive, fusing power. But maybe it's more similar to AC electricity, and the voltage is just so high that it rapes you anyway?

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quib·ble
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial distinctions and objections.
2. To find fault or criticize for petty reasons; cavil.

Ayeohx

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 04:04:04 am »

Did you just end your post with "voltage rape"?
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Baughn

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 06:25:03 am »

Well, electrons do move along the wire - it's just that their speed is in meters per second, while the electric pulse propagates at around a third of lightspeed.
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Vicomt

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 10:04:22 am »

I'm not going to say too much as I don't want to taint other peoples thoughts, but  a wise man once said you can treat the earth as a leaky capacitor functioning as an anode locked into a circuit with our (cathode) sun.

he said this in 1892/3, and people have been ignoring/suppressing his revelations for a century.

Baughn

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 10:12:13 am »

Which is possibly because Tesla was a freaking lunatic.

Not to say that he didn't manage to invent a number of interesting items, but his thoughts on cosmology (the solar system hardly counts now, but it did back then) were completely, and utterly, wrong.

There is no conspiracy trying to keep him down. It's just that he was mistaken.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Volcanic Lightning
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 10:18:16 am »

If this got implemented, I'd create copper towers near volcanoes, hoping for an eruption so I could see what happened.
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