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Author Topic: Cultural architecture variation ideas.  (Read 1166 times)

Aquillion

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Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« on: February 09, 2010, 12:14:13 am »

Right now, every city everywhere in the world is built along the same lines.  Obviously, in the long run it would be neat to see variations in local architecture, like we have in the real world -- so one civilization might build huge pagodas, another one might go for blocky towers, another might build round huts or whatever.

I'm pretty sure the basic idea has been brought up, at least.  But let's try and list some interesting ways to make differences in architecture visible in ascii -- that's an important factor, too.  Practical ideas for how architecture could vary from civilization to civilization, in other words.

In Fortress Mode, we obviously can't force the player to build according to a certain architecture -- but dwarves could 'prefer' their native architecture, and could have thoughts about the area being "too cramped" or "too open", say, if their culture prefers this (obviously this would be for dwarven definitions of cramped and open, but there is still room for variety.)

Some ideas to get started:

* Building height, of course.

* Construction material.  Straw vs wood vs stone.  Some might use dirt floors, or stone only for the floors.

* Decorations.  Some cultures might put statues outside every building for good luck, or engrave each of them.  Some might have signs outside of their stores; others might not.

* Shape.  Square vs round.  Sprawling (with rooms sort of haphazardly added on) vs. compact.

* Wide, open streets or scattered structures vs. tightly-packed cities and towns.

* Overhead connections between buildings, or underground ones.

* Ramps vs. stairs.

* Window frequency.  Some civilizations might even use glass; others might just have fortification-like arrow slits on all their buildings.

* Number of doors.  Some might have only one small entrance; others might have double-doors, or many ways in and out.

* Depth.  Some civilizations might build cellars, while others don't.

* Ponds; some civs might have them indoors, or just outside their doors.

* Pets; some civs might have chained pets outside their structures, or just inside, including guard dogs and the like.

* Size.  Huge buildings vs. small ones.

* Balconies, both external and internal (the current inn template always has a balcony, say.  Some might have that, others might not.)

* Some civs might divide structures into internal rooms; others might have one big mead-hall style affair for most structures.

* "Traditional" layouts for specific kind of structures.  For instance, an entire civilization might share one traditional layout for all their temples, or most of their inns.  Smaller sub-components and templates could have traditional layouts, too (so you see repeating motiefs -- like the layout of the roof, or the location of the stairs), though they might vary from instance to instance.

* How do they treat the surrounding area?  Some civs might flatten the whole area before they build; others might build structures directly into the hills, and have streets that rise and fall over them -- or which tunnel through them.  Some civs might clear-cut all vegetation for a wide distance around their towns; others might let it grow right up against their houses.

* Rivers.  Right now, while towns often build generally near rivers, they don't put them to much use.  Towns should have their own ways of building bridges over them; some civs might build overhanging buildings over the river, or even into the bridge itself.  There should be mills and such in towns, too...

* Canals.  A few cities with a water source might actually build canals, especially in swampy ground.

* Stilt-buildings.  Related to canals.  Used in the real world in swampy or flood-prone areas, the buildings are raised up on columns like 'stilts' to keep them dry, with a staircase leading up and in.  Often with walkways between them.

* Other motiefs -- smaller structures people like to stick on to their buildings.  Minuets.  Little towers.  Domes.  These might be worked into specific types of structures (so all your temples have a dome and a little tower, or a huge spire), or they could appear randomly on buildings throughout the civilization.

* Multistory buildings might vary by floor.  For instance, some civs might traditionally put few windows or other openings on their first floors, to discourage burglers, but have them on the upper floors.

* To keep things interesting, there should be some exceptions to the rules -- a foreign merchant might set up a structure using their own traditions.  Local tolerance for deviations might vary from civ to civ and from city to city, so there could be some big trading towns that are dazzling arrays of clashing architecture, while small towns might be mostly monolithic.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 12:27:21 am by Aquillion »
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 05:53:27 am »

Damn i hate it when people are ninjaing my ideas!

Anyway you forgot describe a decent way of implementation for Buildingstyles.

I think a rule-base Model could work for Architecture and furnishing. Rules for Architecture have to encompass the following points:

- Purpose of the Building
- Floor-layout
- Room-layout
- Materials
- furnishing styles

Purpose of the Building: A building solely dedicated to harbor Militia needs a different set of Rules then a farm or a city Building.

Floor-layout: This encompasses how The floors itself and rooms on the floors are ordered.

For example lets take Civ a:

Civ A likes to have its dinning room next to the kitchen but not next to a Bedroom-room but all on the first floor with a stairway connecting the dinning room with rooms of the Base-floor where all the work is done and the stocks are. Bedrooms should be to the east:

This would mean a number of rules of including, generall and excluding nature.

Including:

- Kitchen, Dinning-room, Bed-room on the same floor
- Stairway connecting the floors next to dinning-room
- Kitchen next to dinning-room.
- work rooms next to stocks (on basefloor)

general:

- Bedrooms on the eastside of the building

excluding rules:

- Kitchen not next to Bedroom
- Work and stocks not on the same floor as Kitchen etc.

Roomlayout:

The roomlayout means the desired layout of a room obvisiously. So said civ A likes circular (5 tiles diameter) kitchens with a fireplace in the middle a 5X5 dinning-room and 3x3 Bedrooms while the stocks are atleast 4x4 and the work-room 10x10.

This means every room gets a Form and a size atleast.


Materials:

Obvisiously a stronghold should be build from Granite and not from logs but for other building other materials might be desired. The base materials should go by building and floornumber so a basefloor can be build from boulders while the first floor is from "Fachwerk" .


The furnishing styles: would be again a number of including general and excluding rules. Say the dinning-room has a little altar to the ancestors but no cabinets, the bedrooms two chests atleast one table and a chair etc. etc. Same goes for the materials of the furniture.




The rules could change over time and from culture to culture and bend a bit to the likes and dislikes of the owner so that a Building in one year might be furnished with Pine-furmniture and a century later with Granite furniture.
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Darkond2100

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 09:16:43 pm »

What happens to cities taken over by other civs? Dwarven forest retreat?
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Aquillion

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 09:38:22 pm »

I would expect that the new civ would build new structures according to their culture, but any old structures would remain.

I suppose if they have a huge antipathy to specific things they might eliminate them -- the way icons and images of people would have been smashed by iconoclastic cultures in the real world, when they captured a city.  But the "old town district" would still show signs of the previous inhabitants.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 06:15:24 am »

You'll also need a process to determine which buildings are built next as a town expands. Generating them at random risks to generate three churches while not having a tavern, for example. Some way to analyze the needs, wants and opportunities of the inhabitants should be found.

Individual building parts could also have a different style. That way you could differentiate between eg. walls of different origin: those would function the same but look different (eg. walls built by different human tribes). That requires more room in the tileset, of course. For some that might also include some functional difference (eg. dwarven walls vs. human walls).

Different tilesets to display the same structure elements could also be used by the player to distinguish eg. the temple from the dining hall, even though the walls are technically both smoothed basalt for example. They could also be used for constructions you're trying to make look round vs. the square ones: you'd designate the round chamber to be displayed in the "rounded walls" style.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 03:48:31 pm »

@Heph

i have a building template thread here:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39304.0

perhaps yo could go there to suggest ways to tag buildings for the ai

@Silverionmox

see the above mentioned thread and also my management ai thread, found here:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39828.0

as to this thread, i think it is a great idea.

for the sake of derail prevention i think we should narrow the discussion to getting the ai to be able to recognize and utilize various architectural elements. Toady has already stated that he thinks it is possible to do.

for example, assume the ai is building from a template, and the civ uses some rule (from the civ raw or wherever) that states "beedrooms on the east." is that something that should be tagged in the building template?

something like:

civ raw:
. . . .
[build req:east bedroom;indoor pool]
. . . .


template raw:

. . . .
[building contains:east bedroom;underground entrance;indoor pool]
. . . .

or do you think that would get to be too much of a management chore and there are better ways of doing it? cant the ai figure it out dynamically?

how will the ai be able to recognize those elements after the building is built? will it keep a notation on the map about the building? how will custom player buildings be handled? can we run an "architectural algorithm" to automatically place building notes?
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sweitx

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 05:08:40 pm »

A major issue would be HOW would a game figure out how to procedurally generate such buildings.  Of course, the OP's initial ideas does sound pretty good for procedural generation.

* "Traditional" layouts for specific kind of structures.  For instance, an entire civilization might share one traditional layout for all their temples, or most of their inns.  Smaller sub-components and templates could have traditional layouts, too (so you see repeating motiefs -- like the layout of the roof, or the location of the stairs), though they might vary from instance to instance.
Ooh, another thought.  Looking at real-world example, you notice that similar structure design tend to be physically close (geographically) to each other.  So a set of seed property can "bleed" out from it's area of origin.  So say you have a region A and region B, each with their own distinct building style.  A region between A and B may have it's own distinct building style OR a mix of A and B.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 05:17:22 pm »

i tend to lean more towards the building block approach. you have a bunch of predefined parts that can be added together. then it is just a matter of copy/paste in a template raw, and the ai can figure out how the pieces go together.

i think the procedural stuff works very well for natural environments in df, i think templating buildings and building parts would be better for this game though, as it would allow greater player access.

just my 2 cents on that.
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Funk

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 03:52:50 pm »

the age of the site shoud change the buildings, the old log cabin to more urban buildings.

Materials based on the local area if you can inport materials.

Material preferences
all materials shoud have a build preference i.e. slate has high roof,wall and floor pref, so slate roofs will be wide spread over a area.

note that inports need be easy to move in mass.
some thing can add to the range that a site can draw materials from rivers and roads are the main ones.

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PsyberianHusky

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Re: Cultural architecture variation ideas.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 10:35:15 pm »

the age of the site shoud change the buildings, the old log cabin to more urban buildings.

Materials based on the local area if you can inport materials.

Material preferences
all materials shoud have a build preference i.e. slate has high roof,wall and floor pref, so slate roofs will be wide spread over a area.

note that inports need be easy to move in mass.
some thing can add to the range that a site can draw materials from rivers and roads are the main ones.



Would it understand scarcity ? otherwise we are gonna get citys built from Miocene
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