Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Arrkhal]

If toady make a new, fancy ui, he will have to redo it entirely at a point, and it would be wasted time.

Really, the "right" time for a new UI would be when the game engine itself is finalized, and all that's left are features and RAW tweaks.  At that point, any changes to the game would be very easy to put into the UI.

Ideally, the final game engine, graphical engine, and UI will all be compartmentalized enough that the graphics and UI could be completely replaced by modders.  That would definitely make the game more accessible.

[Footkerchief]

In all other areas it seems the devs have revealed their plans and concepts of where development will lead. But in regards to the UI, it feels like its just a "will be made better, is important"  kind of statement.

Not sure what gave you that impression.  In addition to Toady's awareness of the need for general improvements, there are dozens of specific dev items:

# PRESENTATION ARC: A cleaner interface and more interface and display options will make the game more accessible. Better support for translations. Related to Core21, Core50, Core51, Core52, Core54, Req37, Req43, Req79, Req142, Req152, Req179, Req180, Req207, Req218, Req258, Req306, Req314, Req320, Req328, Req332, Req338, Req381, Req382, Req383, Req386, Req387, Req388, Req390, Req401, Req402, Req411, Req421, Req430, Req432, Req434, Req443, Req460, Req483, Req513, Req520, Req531, Req546, Req547, Req548, Req550, Req556, Req558, Req559, Req560, Req564, Req566, Req570, Req585, Bloat52, Bloat106, Bloat107, Bloat108, Bloat118, Bloat153, Bloat199, Bloat268, Bloat303, Bloat307, Bloat311, Bloat354, Bloat355, Bloat358, Bloat361, Bloat364, Bloat368 and Bloat379.

The current UI doesn't GROW on you, rather it stops being horrible and you get used to it. But it still blows. Toady knows it. I assume the main reason not to work on it is because he doesn't want to spend a ton of time putting it together, only to go on developing and end up with all kinds of new game elements that have to be jury-rigged in, to the point that it ends up like it is now, all over again. I'd expect a decent interface to be one of the last things we see.

I.e., it'll be a couple decades.

Even disregarding the hyperbole, this is maybe a little too pessimistic for several reasons.  First, he's been creating new interfaces throughout this dev cycle: new military screens, new healthcare screen, noble screen is probably reworked, etc.  You can count on those screens being more intelligently designed than the ones he wrote back in 2004.  Second, he's going to be working on the top 10 Eternal Suggestion Voting entries soon after this release, and 3 of those (arguably 4) are interface-related. 

[Hyndis]

In all other areas it seems the devs have revealed their plans and concepts of where development will lead. But in regards to the UI, it feels like its just a "will be made better, is important"  kind of statement.
I think they are being honest, I think they might have the interface they have because they are very busy on game concept additions and how to make the interface better might not jump out at them.

Devs? They?

This game is made by one guy. Toady can only do so much. His brother does help out, but Toady is the one doing the programming and he can only program so fast.

He has to prioritize. The UI is polishing the game, which is a late phase in game development. First you need to finish the game itself, then you can work on the UI.

[Impaler[WrG]]

most people agree it needs work, but the developers seem to loath working on the UI (which is common among poor programmers).

Fixed. A good programmer knows that UI is part of the software not just something you stick on top.

Couldn't agree more, my own work in UI has probably made me a bit biased but I say the UI "IS" the game, because that's all the player is ever going to interact with and the game is that set of interactions.

[G-Flex]

The UI should be a consideration from the start, yes, but only insofar as the developer actually knows what the UI will need to be capable of. This is true to some degree with DF, but not true as a whole; Toady does a lot of planning, but not necessarily enough that he'll know enough about how features are going to be implemented that he can crystallize a UI around it from the start.

[Safe-Keeper]

As others have probably said, an Age of Empires II-ish model with tooltips would work very nice.

But it's an alpha version, and I realize how incredibly much work it is to rework a UI. Further down the road, however, it should be top priority.

[Pilsu]

Making the mouse more functional would not be wasted code unless he removes the tile system entirely

[Zeofar]

Personally, I have no issue with the UI at this point.  While I agree that it could be polished and made a bit more useful, I find that it is far more useful and elegant than any tool-tipped, menu-hidden, fancy grafficked, greyed-out mess that most "professionally" developed games might deliver.  In my opinion, fussing over the UI is more or less equivalent to fussing over the graphics; it doesn't add significantly to enjoyment of playability unless there is something fundamentally and functionally broken.  At the current, there isn't anything that is ridiculously frustrating or difficult to achieve (To my knowledge, so, forgive me if I'm ignorant to a specific example) that could be rectified by "cleaning up" the UI, so I don't think that it really needs much attention.  On the other hand, there are a quite few things that are far too difficult to achieve, but none of them really relate to how the UI looks or is organized, but rather the ability to actually interact with the game-world.

[Hyndis]

Personally, I have no issue with the UI at this point.  While I agree that it could be polished and made a bit more useful, I find that it is far more useful and elegant than any tool-tipped, menu-hidden, fancy grafficked, greyed-out mess that most "professionally" developed games might deliver.  In my opinion, fussing over the UI is more or less equivalent to fussing over the graphics; it doesn't add significantly to enjoyment of playability unless there is something fundamentally and functionally broken.  At the current, there isn't anything that is ridiculously frustrating or difficult to achieve (To my knowledge, so, forgive me if I'm ignorant to a specific example) that could be rectified by "cleaning up" the UI, so I don't think that it really needs much attention.  On the other hand, there are a quite few things that are far too difficult to achieve, but none of them really relate to how the UI looks or is organized, but rather the ability to actually interact with the game-world.

I agree. The UI is complicated yes, but DF is a complex game. Any UI that would be able to provide all of the functions to allow the player to use all of the functions in the game will be a very complex UI.

The UI is surprisingly robust for a game in alpha. Its complicated but I do not think it is possible to make a simple UI for such a complicated game. There just isn't any way around it.

[Jacob/Lee]

The only fault with this is that you won't know what is required to make that well or whatever because it wouldn't show up.

Maybe if you had insuffiecient materials it would be red instead.

[Safe-Keeper]

I agree. The UI is complicated yes, but DF is a complex game. Any UI that would be able to provide all of the functions to allow the player to use all of the functions in the game will be a very complex UI.

The UI is surprisingly robust for a game in alpha. Its complicated but I do not think it is possible to make a simple UI for such a complicated game. There just isn't any way around it.

Let's not go overboard here. Sure, we've gotten used to the UI, and sure, DF is a one-man show and in alpha, but the UI is poorly designed and in dire need of an overhaul. It also makes the game just about completely inaccessible to new players without the use of tutorials, the Wiki, and help from others who have played the game. Before I read the play-along tutorial on afteractionreporter.com, I tried several times to get into DF and failed miserably because I simply clueless as to what was going on. Sure, there are complicated games out there, like flight sims, which have a learning curve (fire up Falcon 4.0 Allied Force and try to get an F-16 started, taxied, and off the ground. I dare you) but when the challenge lies in simple things like navigating menus... it's a bad UI.

Sorry, but while I love DF, and understand that it's in alpha, you're really just being fanboys here when you try to say it's "better than professional UIs" or "doesn't affect gameplay".

[Shades]

"better than professional UIs"

I don't know, I've used some pretty appalling 'professional' UIs. I'll agree the DF one isn't good though. Even when you get used to it it's only fairly easy to use and not simple, it also doesn't provide more power or control than a better and simpler UI would (see Dwarf Therapist for example)

[Hyndis]

How would you improve the UI then while maintaining all of the current functionality?

Don't critique unless you can think of a way to improve it. Its easy to just declare something to be bad, but that also unhelpful.

[Shades]

How would you improve the UI then while maintaining all of the current functionality?

Off the top of my head, probably way more if I was actually playing the game and looking for stuff.

Improve the lists so they use the full height when on different resolutions.
Add scroll bars to lists so you can both see how far through you are and use the mouse to jump to part of it.
Use the mouse to allow selecting of dwarves (and other animals), workshops and stockpiles.
Provide easy toggles between the different view contents and view materials/square where appropriate.
Allow the mouse at all on the menu system.
Add the ability to add work orders to the job manager directly from the workshop.
Highlights for selected dwarf's owned rooms and current task items and workshops.
Include filters for trading, much the same way you select items to transport there.
Allow a jump to dwarf/location key or click for any log messages.
Group job management similar to how dwarf therapist does it, on profession for example.
Auto job selection settings for immigrants (in the same style as above).
Designation patterns for mass mining and the like.

[Hyndis]

There are a few things that would be widely agreed as improvements. For example, putting in dwarf foreman/manager into the game. There does need to be some way to manage the jobs of large numbers of dwarves.

The job manager is a good system but could be improved by allowing conditions. If fewer than 200 booze then brew more booze. Or grind plants at the mill forever. Things like that.


I don't really see how the mouse would add a lot to the game though. Using a mouse is much slower than using hotkeys, and currently the entire game is done through hotkeys. With a little bit of practice you can build anything extremely quickly, far more quickly than possible to do with a mouse. It would also require a lot of extra time taken away from finishing the game in order to do these changes. DF will always be a niche game. No amount of UI improvement will change DF from a niche to mainstream game unless an art team of dozens of people sink a few million dollars into the UI.