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Author Topic: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?  (Read 7548 times)

Armok

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2010, 11:56:01 am »

I know nothing about law, nor about this strange American political capitalism craze, but this seems like a economics issue, so I'll put on my economy hat and analyse it:

Problem: A service (law advice) is scarce. This service is necessary for a decent standard of living. Most of the time people don't need it, but locationally a random even strikes and if they do not get the service the results are unacceptable, as well as damaging to society if it happens frequently (law system stops working justly). Currently only some people can afford the service.

Possible solutions:
 - Increase capability of production of service (train more lawyers)
 - Increase supply by lowering quality.
 - Rationing, nobody gets as much as they really need, but everyone get some.
 - Decrease demand in case of the random event. (simpler/no laws, so people can defend themselves. Yes I know this dosn't work, but those reasons are outside the scope of this analysis, so thus I include it anyway)
 - Decrease frequency of random events (Make the situation where people need to sue rarer, by encouraging early settlement, better preventive law enforcement, or changing laws so fewer things require lawsutes to resolve.)

Not saying any of these works, if they did thay would probably have been implemented, I'm just throwing this ideas in here.
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Truean

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2010, 12:10:56 pm »

I wish I knew.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 09:14:36 pm by Truean »
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Blacken

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2010, 01:50:58 pm »

The people who remain employed during a recession are people who have worked to become irreplaceable (or just aren't replaceable enough at the moment to make the loss of productivity and efficacy worth firing them).

Completely ignoring that in businesses that don't have union rules to prevent it, the people most frequently laid off in bad quarters are the more experienced, longer working employees, because they draw higher salaries than new hires.  Or that a huge part of America's unemployment are manufacturing workers whose life training only applies to industries that have left the country through no fault of theirs, aside from wanting a wage commiserate to American market prices instead of Malaysian wages.
The more experienced people in fungible positions disappear, yes. Experience is less important than the fungibility of your position. And guess what? Manufacturing jobs are fungible. So's janitorial work. So's ditchdigging. You cannot be "special" in those jobs. They're monkey-work. So yeah, people in those jobs are going to get canned when things get tight or when it stops being reasonable to employ those people here. It doesn't matter how experienced you are if you are doing a job a robot or a Malaysian can do just as well.

And guess what? I agree entirely that it's no fault of theirs. That also doesn't really matter, now, does it? It doesn't matter that it's not their fault the jobs disappeared. It remains their responsibility to not remain in those positions. We've known for, what, twenty years that American manufacturing was going away? Even longer? It's not like we're reading tea leaves here. Twenty years. Most of these people who are getting laid off from front-line jobs started those jobs when this was already staring us in the face. It's not like this is blindsiding anyone with a clue. I have little sympathy for people who, quite simply, should have known better and are now receiving the results of their bad choices.



Truean: Your post has very little to do with what I said. I'm well aware of the cause of the recession, thank you, and it doesn't change anything I said. Of course the current recession was caused by financial irresponsibility. Nobody's contesting that. What I am saying is that the majority of people who are getting laid off in this recession are the people who don't have anything special about them to encourage their employers to keep them employed. They are fungible. They are easily replaced or done without. So they are the ones who get the axe.

(And in a more generous moment I'd probably even say that it's a reasonable role for the government to play, retraining those workers. It's not ideologically preferable, but it's a reasonable service that has trickle-down effects to benefit everyone instead of people on an individual level. And it wouldn't be that expensive.)
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2010, 02:26:30 pm »

(reads thread title)

(reads thread)

Look no further for irony.
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Armok

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2010, 02:47:04 pm »

(reads thread title)

(reads thread)

Look no further for irony.
I know! It's hilarious! :D
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winner

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2010, 03:31:48 pm »

The more experienced people in fungible positions disappear, yes. Experience is less important than the fungibility of your position. And guess what? Manufacturing jobs are fungible. So's janitorial work. So's ditchdigging. You cannot be "special" in those jobs. They're monkey-work.
I disagree I have seen people with dramatically different effectiveness at those kind of jobs.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2010, 07:17:29 pm »

(reads thread title)

(reads thread)

Look no further for irony.
I know! It's hilarious! :D

Every here been pretty calm. oO Oo
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chaoticag

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2010, 07:29:03 am »

This thread makes me wonder if cornering the market for "friviolous lawsuit insurance" is feasable.
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eerr

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2010, 07:56:44 am »

All due respect, I'm not sure if you're trying to flame (as per your first post) or not, but you might be missing things here with a simplistic economic approach. Econ is one of my degrees too....

There have been several market failures lately.

Where to begin? Banks and bankers have responsibilities to others in a larger ethical and legal sense. They have fiduciary duties to their stock holders to act in the best interest of the corporation and ethical duties to the rest of us to not be massive cheats/twits. Highly paid twits in the banking industry ignored what was right in front of them: you can't make subprime loans to people who can't pay them back for short term gain. Further, the bank's CPA (Certifiied PUBLIC Accountants) had ethical duties to report on the risk; they didn't. So the banks all acted stupidly and there was no alternative (as presupposed in a market theory) to put your money in. There was a massive systematic risk of the entire US banking industry collapsing, and thus we bailed them out. The only problem is that the same twits are still running things in banking.
By calling the bankers twits, you assume someone else would not do the same.
I feel that most people would commit exactly the same mistakes, assuming they learned the same financial knowledge and practice. After all, you wouldn't want a bank run by someone who doesn't understand that at no point could a bank ever make a profit from {gambling}, because it's not worth the risk.

Additionally, everybody, including said bankers aren't eager to make the same mistake now. So all the people who speak out now in anger assume that someone other than the banker(s) would do a better job. But right now even the bankers would do a better job because they *gasp* have caught wind of the recession too! But through a 5-second inspection of the facts, there is absolutely no reason to replace them if you still want the bank open.

Now if you want someone to blame, go burn Ben Bernakie at the stake. Scapegoat is in his job description. I believe congress is making progress on this issue.


The people who remain employed during a recession are people who have worked to become irreplaceable (or just aren't replaceable enough at the moment to make the loss of productivity and efficacy worth firing them).
That is pure mythology and one of the most laughably ridiculous things I've ever heard

Explain with incredible detail.
Or no guns.
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redacted123

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« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2010, 08:06:33 pm »

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« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:21:19 am by Stany »
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Aqizzar

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2010, 08:15:51 pm »

The people who remain employed during a recession are people who have worked to become irreplaceable (or just aren't replaceable enough at the moment to make the loss of productivity and efficacy worth firing them).
That is pure mythology and one of the most laughably ridiculous things I've ever heard
It's completely true, if an employee is important enough for it to be unprofitable to fire them, then they won't be fired. It's common sense. Companies don't just fire people for the hell of it, they fire the ones they think they can do better without.

A) You seem to think experience and being irreplaceable are the same thing.  They are absolutely not.
B) The very fact that companies fail is proof enough that no manager can really know who is vital and who isn't.  They're only human after all.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2010, 08:19:39 pm »

The people who remain employed during a recession are people who have worked to become irreplaceable (or just aren't replaceable enough at the moment to make the loss of productivity and efficacy worth firing them).
That is pure mythology and one of the most laughably ridiculous things I've ever heard
It's completely true, if an employee is important enough for it to be unprofitable to fire them, then they won't be fired. It's common sense. Companies don't just fire people for the hell of it, they fire the ones they think they can do better without.

A) You seem to think experience and being irreplaceable are the same thing.  They are absolutely not.
B) The very fact that companies fail is proof enough that no manager can really know who is vital and who isn't.  They're only human after all.

It also forgetting politics as well. From my experience those who were unpopular with mgm. seem to get fire more often then those that are buddy buddy. With no bearing on how well they did their job.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2010, 10:23:47 pm »

On the internet everyone is right.

Since people have differing opinions, some of them have to be wrong.

That's impossible though, because I'm right.  You're the one that's wrong.  Are you saying I'm wrong?  You're an idiot!

That is why people fight.  Everyone is right, but someone has to be wrong.
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eerr

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2010, 12:00:50 am »

On the internet everyone is right.

So, Everybody on the internet thinks they are right?
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Why do people argue and fight instead of calmly debate?
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2010, 01:09:17 am »

That is why people fight.  Everyone is right, but someone has to be wrong.

Precisely.  Because everyone is right, or so they think.  Nobody is deliberately wrong (i.e. they don't truly believe something they think is wrong, because thinking something's wrong implies not believing it).
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