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[Chiefwaffles]

Posts complaining about attacking/defending against Rhodocks makes me happy I always go Rhodok in my games.

The first and last thing my enemies see is a hail of bolts!

[WealthyRadish]

The tragic thing about crossbowmen is that some peasant in his pajamas with a club can kill god-tier troops by just standing around flinging bolts in their general direction. Can totally see why that pope tried to ban them, I'd be pissed too if my knights were getting killed by a bunch of casuals.

Usually I'll avoid sieging the Rhodoks until the very end of a game, hoping to get as many castle-holding lords as possible to just defect.

[scrdest]

Can totally see why that pope tried to ban them, I'd be pissed too if my knights were getting killed by a bunch of casuals.

Filthy casuals, too.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

Speaking of Rhodoks is there a mod that expands upon crossbows (can't remember if I've asked this before)? They're pretty lethal in AI hands but completely fall short in player hands due to disgusting bow bias.

I'm thinking things like heavy crossbows with cranks and goatfoot levers. Simple "ironsights" for tracking. Some kind of perk to rival Power Draw so they're not completely overshadowed by bows in the late game.

[scrdest]

Speaking of Rhodoks is there a mod that expands upon crossbows (can't remember if I've asked this before)? They're pretty lethal in AI hands but completely fall short in player hands due to disgusting bow bias.

I'm thinking things like heavy crossbows with cranks and goatfoot levers. Simple "ironsights" for tracking. Some kind of perk to rival Power Draw so they're not completely overshadowed by bows in the late game.

Them being overshadowed by bows is most likely intentional - crossbows' main advantage is that any random peasant can use it to lethal effect without much training, but as evidenced in the Crusades, a skilled troop of bowmen win - with lots of firepower on its own, if perhaps a bit inferior, but disproportionately larger rate of fire.

The main drawback of a bow is that it's a pain to create an army of bowmen, because it requires years and years of training.

[Micro102]

Well look at it this way. The points you would have spent on power draw now go into other things. If you are the type that goes 30 strength then this is 10 skill points in things like training, inv management, prisoner management, etc.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

Them being overshadowed by bows is most likely intentional - crossbows' main advantage is that any random peasant can use it to lethal effect without much training, but as evidenced in the Crusades, a skilled troop of bowmen win - with lots of firepower on its own, if perhaps a bit inferior, but disproportionately larger rate of fire.

The main drawback of a bow is that it's a pain to create an army of bowmen, because it requires years and years of training.

Crossbows seem to get a bad rep these days, I blame British historical bias (Agincourt) and god damn Tolkien elves. I used to also think they were peasant weapons but after some reading it seems like I was completely wrong and it's better to look at the crossbow as having a completely different skillset and use then bows.

While it's true that a lot of crossbow use was by peasants that was also true for hunting bows. Every man in the country would know how to use either a hunting bow or crossbow and most urban men would have some knowledge of either. The advantage of course was that crossbows could have a much higher poundage than hunting bows and warbows (like longbows) needed extensive training (sometimes even before manhood).
Crusaders' crossbows were also devastating against the muslims especially during the first crusade. "Frankish Bows" as they were called were notorious and hated by the defenders, often outright killing or torturing captured crossbowmen. 

Bows are basically artillery, you lob as many projectiles at a group as you can and you get the hell out of Dodge if they start making ground. While you can have great accuracy with a bow you have to reload the weapon, draw to full power and then take aim making it rather dubious at close range or when there's plenty of cover for the target to scamper behind.

A crossbow however can be fully reloaded, cocked and ready to be fired all before an engagement. All you have to do is aim and pull the lever. This makes it far more effective in a battlefield where enemies are drawing closer or even more suited to sieges. A crossbow is also much more suited to fighting from cover (like a pavise shield) where you could reload in safety and emerge only to take aim and shoot.

Since a draw can only be held for so long with bows they're not very effective at "sniping" or "tracking" enemies that are moving from cover to cover. A crossbow can be held at full effectiveness for until that short period where a mark withdraws from cover. Although pre-modern crossbows all lacked "sights" soldiers became pretty adept at aiming down a crossbow excelling them in long drawn out sieges where they could pick off patrolling guards and slowly draining manpower.

Crossbow skill mostly take the form of tracking, aiming and reloading. All of which could easily be rolled into a single perk that could rival power draw. Decreasing mouse acceleration (while in "ironsight mode"), weapon sway and finally reloading speed.

tl;dr: bows are artillery, lob as many projectiles as possible at the enemy clumps. Crossbows are the close range defensive tool that is also effective at picking off targets moving throughout cover.

[Zangi]

I don't think crossbows need to be buffed.  In a game balance sense, giving crossbows both the benefit of the fast reload of a bow and its already high damage potential is going to skew things if bows are not rebalanced to be even better then they are now... then you are back to square one, but with the khanite, vaegir and rhodoks doing better or if you don't also rebalance bows, the rhodok peasants will rule the world.
... I guess you won't have to rebalance jack if it is exclusive to the player/companions.

As has been said, you can just throw a crossbow on anyone and they can do as much damage against an armored opponent as a mid-high tier bowman if it hits.  Bows NEED those skill points to do damage against armored units, plus using higher tier bows. 
Well crossbows also do pretty good in sieges as they are.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

I don't necessarily want crossbows to be "buffed" but rather actually have them an option for a character that wishes to specialise in them. You could easily nerf damage across the board for the lighter crossbows and instead leave the slow heavy crank/lever crossbows to be the heavy hitters, requiring a number of crossbow perk levels just like bows and power draw.

Right now the issue is you can just throw a low leveled companion a crossbow and they'll wreck face without any skill dedication. However if the player wishes to specialise in ranged weapons they have to go for bows because they just scale so much better.

Crossbows could easily fill a decent niche that is missing (especially in multiplayer) that is defensive firing, quickly taking out a single high value target and finally anti-archer duty (assuming they're not out-ranged). War of the Roses had pretty decent implementation of crossbows compared to Mount and Blade.

[Rolan7]

The main drawback of a bow

[Micro102]

I don't necessarily want crossbows to be "buffed" but rather actually have them an option for a character that wishes to specialise in them. You could easily nerf damage across the board for the lighter crossbows and instead leave the slow heavy crank/lever crossbows to be the heavy hitters, requiring a number of crossbow perk levels just like bows and power draw.

Right now the issue is you can just throw a low leveled companion a crossbow and they'll wreck face without any skill dedication. However if the player wishes to specialise in ranged weapons they have to go for bows because they just scale so much better.

Crossbows could easily fill a decent niche that is missing (especially in multiplayer) that is defensive firing, quickly taking out a single high value target and finally anti-archer duty (assuming they're not out-ranged). War of the Roses had pretty decent implementation of crossbows compared to Mount and Blade.

The problem with giving a skill to crossbows is that there is nothing to base that skill on. An arrow does more damage and goes further if you pull it back farther, which requires muscle. A crossbow does not have that. It's literally aim and pull trigger. It's all in the material and crossbow skill.

[Uristides]

Aren't there mods with big crossbows that deal lots of damage? SoD did it IIRC. I only remember I once saw some big ones on the market and thought about doing a xbow character(but never really act upon it). If firearms can be viable to the player just with a weapon skill and a variety of big rifles, then why can't crossbows? You'll probably need a few extra points in athletics to compensate for their big weight, but it's not like you're sinking points into a crossbow skill anyway.

[Paul]

The skill could be reload related and simply let you reload faster. Then the heaviest crossbows could be given a damage boost to put them up there with a high end bow and high power draw, but slow reload speeds without the skill to speed it up.

It has some basis in reality, since someone skilled with crossbows would be able to reload one much faster than a novice. Especially in a stressful situation like combat.

 I'm not sure if it's possible in the current M&B engine to make a skill affect reload speed, though.

[Akura]

I'm not sure if it's possible in the current M&B engine to make a skill affect reload speed, though.

I think so. I recall playing the Rise of the Third Coalition mod for the original, and being able to reload guns faster with higher skill. At least, I think I could. I think it was only noticeable with major skill differences and the fact that guns reloads realistically(read: godawful) slow.

[SalmonGod]

I think crossbows are fine as they are.  They do a lot of damage without any skill investment.  There should be different varieties that lean one way or the other towards power or speed.  But otherwise, they're the ranged option for a character that doesn't want to focus on building up ranged skill.  Also, I think the weapon skill (the one that builds up with use) effects reload speed?  That's the only thing the weapon skills do, I'm pretty sure, is allow you to swing/stab/shoot faster.