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[MrWiggles]

MrWiggles: All those games are allowed in Australia though.

I agree with you for the most part to the point that maybe America has *too much* freedom of speech, but I didn't say that *cough*. Of course, the problem with "I do not believe a government has the ability to tell me what fictitious media I am allowed to enjoy" is that when it comes to the obvious thing with sexual deviants. Or you know... things like Scientology. Heck, I was overjoyed when France banned Scientology. So there definitely are times when censorship has a place. Can you confidently state when and where those places are?

I think the best test is simply, when you are playing the game in question (or the movie, etc.), what do you feel when a little kid / spouse / parents / hamster watches you do what you do? Though of course, things brings up a whole new can of beans so... bleh.

The games were an illustration to the point not the point itself, even with pornographically violent games, they still need to be created and molded to fit with theme of the media.

Though yes, I enjoy that scientology is banned in France, and germany (few other spots in europe), I think its wrong. I do not have to agree with your belief, I do not have to respect your belief, but as long as the participants are consenting adults I dont really care about the action of it either.

I can't really think of place when censorship is called for.

I'll temper my position in stating I am speaking towards adults. Minors, are different, and the lite version of my position is that it is largely up to the guardians with various exceptions.

I think I would need a concise definition of censorship before I can answer the question with more depth. Could you provide this please?

Also, I'm not sure how you can have to much freedom of expression/speech. Especially when it comes down to factious media.  There are noted limitations of free speech. Liable, slander, and ensuing panic being the major ones.

The expression, doesn't have to be socially acceptable, or moral, well done, popular for it to be allowed.

[Aqizzar]

So criminals, not deviants. There is a key distinction there. Honestly, I'm not sure why any rapist/murder gets out of jail ever, but thats why they don't let me decide punishments.

Oh, so that's the difference? I always thought they were one and the same. Though I guess you have to be a sexual deviant to be a sex criminal, but the reverse is not true.

Okay, I still want to be friendly, but I have to wonder if you aren't saying that just to be controversial.  You know what the words deviant and criminal mean.  Criminal is stuff that actually breaks laws, especially in the relativist attitude of this discussion, laws we're pretty much in total agreement on, like rape, or statute pedophilia.  (I say statute, because I'm of the "eighteen and seventeen are close enough" camp.)

Deviant is just anything you think is weird.  Bondage enthusiasts, furries, heck, homosexuality if you go by some American laws that stayed on the books until the 1990s.

[umiman]

Uh... I didn't know the difference between deviant and criminal. That was it.

English isn't my first language, as hard as that may be to believe for you guys.

[MrWiggles]

So criminals, not deviants. There is a key distinction there. Honestly, I'm not sure why any rapist/murder gets out of jail ever, but thats why they don't let me decide punishments.

Oh, so that's the difference? I always thought they were one and the same. Though I guess you have to be a sexual deviant to be a sex criminal, but the reverse is not true.

Okay, I still want to be friendly, but I have to wonder if you aren't saying that just to be controversial.  You know what the words deviant and criminal mean.  Criminal is stuff that actually breaks laws, especially in the relativist attitude of this discussion, laws we're pretty much in total agreement on, like rape, or statute pedophilia.  (I say statute, because I'm of the "eighteen and seventeen are close enough" camp.)

Deviant is just anything you think is weird.  Bondage enthusiasts, furries, heck, homosexuality if you go by some American laws that stayed on the books until the 1990s.

American laws are filled with life style deviance laws and religious laws, that are consider unenforceable. Many states have religious test for public office, despite being unconstitutional. In fact there a city concil member who is trying to be removed from his voted seat due to being an atheist. Its expected to loose, but this isn't really here nor there.

I agree with Aquizzar that deviants and criminals are not interchangeable.

[Nivim]

 I have a question, does anyone have any census information on violence that is <5 years old? I want something that I can be sure supports the previously linked article for at least 2008. Mostly because whom I've showed it too has looked at the date and dismissed it.
 Oddly enough, I do not live in Australia, I do not own any objectionable video games (although I haven't really gotten to play Oblivion), nor do I have any interest in the epileptic games. I want to find more information on the topic, but my searches only bring up opinion based articles; not well documented independent research.

[Zangi]

Zangi: Perhaps we should consider what would happen with Australia's rating policy if there was no outrage from the gamer community? I think it would be interesting. This might be unrelated but as a Chinese, I can tell you that when it comes to Asia and Asian politics, the WORST way you can attempt to get an Asian government to do something is to cry foul in public and make a big public mess. The government will likely make what it is you're hating even worse. Take China for example and the latest Google scandal. There's no way China would change it's policy now that Google made it "lose face" in the global world. Perhaps the same might apply to Australia?

Heh, thats a really good point.  But... considering it, China is exceptional when it comes to 'reputation' in the global world... Forgive my ignorance, I don't know much about Australian gov't nor keep with this particular topic, but it doesn't strike me as something that would "lose face" in the global world.

Eh, and artsy is a reasonable alternate view to "I want to see blood and guts!".... 
While a change from strong censorship to less or no censorship isn't an alternate view... but a change that would probably result in either hard to put down Civil Unrest or as far as a bloody Regime change... 
Who knows what else the Chinese Gov't has been keeping from its own people?  After going as far as they have... they can't stop... not if they want to keep things stable and themselves in power.


I stand by my belief of no action = no change and silence is acceptance.  Oh how the Chinese Gov't would love for its people and them pesky foreigners to be silent...

[Agdune]

Yah, 'deviant' just means deviating from the norm. Like a foot fetishist would be a deviant. Of course, now I'm tempted to dig up some statistics on whether or not having access to rape/snuff/whatever porn increases or decreases violent sexual crimes (I'm pretty sure it's the latter), but I feel I've worked this particular sex-related tangent a bit too much for one day. :p

Also I didn't know we had actual drive through bottle shops... I knew we had 'express parking' lanes right outside the door but wow. I had typed up a full two paragraphs about alcoholism in Australian society and how it leads to dozens of deaths every single day and how that problem wasn't being held accountable at all and niche media/interactive media are great scapegoats for societal woes because 75% of voters are hooked on alcohol, not gaming, but then I remembered all the ad campaigns that are trying to reduce binge and chronic alcohol abuse, so I proved my own point wrong before I'd made it.

Now I have no point again.

[beorn080]

So criminals, not deviants. There is a key distinction there. Honestly, I'm not sure why any rapist/murder gets out of jail ever, but thats why they don't let me decide punishments.

Oh, so that's the difference? I always thought they were one and the same. Though I guess you have to be a sexual deviant to be a sex criminal, but the reverse is not true.

Sexual deviant and criminal do mean two different things. A criminal hurts another person with his actions, a deviant doesn't. The courts do have a tendency to use them interchangeably though. And no, being a sexual deviant is NOT a prerequisite to being a criminal. That's like saying being gay is a prerequisite to being a criminal.

Prepost ninja edit. Its ok Uniman. Some of us get a little annoyed when we hear the whole DEVIANT = CRIMINAL thing, but we have a tendency to forget that people post here from other countries. The scary part to me is that you have a far better command of the english language then some people I talk to online that were born in America, though that is probably the reason.

2nd prepost ninja edit. MrWiggles, Aquizzar, those laws are still on the books. Any act other then "normal" heterosexual intercourse is technically against the law in many states, as well as owning materials with said acts in them.

3rd prepost ninja edit. God you people type fast.

[Cheeetar]

Regardless of gore being useless, and his entire argument: Why ban it? He's provided reasons as to why complaining about the ban is silly, but he hasn't actually provided any reasons for the ban in the first place.

[sonerohi]

Uh... I didn't know the difference between deviant and criminal. That was it.

English isn't my first language, as hard as that may be to believe for you guys.

It actually is, given your mastery of it.


On Topic: Australia isn't the only one with drive through liquor stores. We have five down-town, and since verifying age is apparently too long to do at a drive through, they will seriously let you through if you have any sort of work ID or facial hair. I could get a job down at Burger King, hit the road, and flash my BK ID for some rum if I so desired.

[umiman]

Zangi: Then forget that China example. That's really how politics works outside of Western countries. Very insider, protect the reputation thing. China is actually much better and free-er when it comes to that compared to other countries like my home country, Malaysia. At least they punish their officials to a point when those officials screw up. When the people want things done in Asian countries, it generally involves a lot of bribes and secretive actions. It's not exactly silent. In fact, everyone knows how it's done. Just that it's not too vocal in the press, which is what matters to the politicians.

Malaysia's definition of politics: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8495000.stm

So, while I don't know how Australian politics work, do you think it would be more effective if say... gamers created a lobby group (hahaha...) and started lobbying the government instead?

Sonerohi: Thanks, but my first language is Mandarin. Second is Bahasa. Third is English. My family speaks Mandarin and Cantonese, so I learned that from them first, and Bahasa and English are mandatory in school. My parents forced me to learn French when I was a kid, so I do have some very basic rudimentary grasp on it.

Also, what's the problem with drive-thru liquor stores? Just seems to be time saving to me, if a bit crude.

[sonerohi]

It makes it a helluva lot easier to drink and drive.

[Soulwynd]

Maaaan, I could point out some silly fallacies in both the person's article and Umiman's agreement. But then I'm sure Moron would come going rabble-rabble-rabble must have college grade logic curses and whatnot and then I'd have to go find my curriculum and take a photo and so on and on all because the retards agree with the conclusion, now how they reached it. But I digress.

Anyway, I disagree with censoring anything and everything. While I do agree that everyone should have the right to deny their image to appear to the masses, I think that content made to be viewed shouldn't be censored, no matter if it's grotesque or disgusting.

The only exception, for me, would be snuff or something similar, where what's being done is real and that's the whole purpose of the recording. Allowing those would just enforce the horrible act being done in order to produce the movie.

Of course, in games nothing is real, the argument of 'taking part' is simply void as it's not real. It's not even close to virtual reality. A second mistake is the whole quoting the rating mature. The mature refers to physical age, as children may be more susceptible to the influence of interacting with something that's violent, even if it's not real. Psychologically unstable people might be influenced as well, but in my view, it's just a matter of time til those snap one way or another, I don't believe a game or a movie would be the main reason for any crazy shooting there might go around. People are more than welcome to disagree with that, but in any case, exceptions don't make the rule.

Taking out someone's freedom to play a gorey game is more of a crime than a protection. It's judging both developers and gamers for things they have never done in real life and will most likely never do.

So why would anyone make and play games like that? Because you can, because it's not real, and because it might be fun.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[MrWiggles]

I have a question, does anyone have any census information on violence that is <5 years old? I want something that I can be sure supports the previously linked article for at least 2008. Mostly because whom I've showed it too has looked at the date and dismissed it.
 Oddly enough, I do not live in Australia, I do not own any objectionable video games (although I haven't really gotten to play Oblivion), nor do I have any interest in the epileptic games. I want to find more information on the topic, but my searches only bring up opinion based articles; not well documented independent research.

The only time when a social study is to old is when its twenty +years.

As that when its at a generational differance. Anything with  in a decade is practially hot off the presses.

Social studies cannot be updated yearly.

[Zangi]

Snip
Malaysia's definition of politics: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8495000.stm

umiman: Ah money speaking on behalf.  Understood.

I suppose lobbying is how things work in democracies similar to the US.  Its actually the same as how its done in Malaysia, money talks, but in a different manner and guise...

And I just find that funny... and quite effective to take down the opposition... even if it doesn't, it will still erode his public standing and chances....  guess Malaysia has some homophobia issues....