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[HideousBeing]

I was brought up to think that any form of censorship shouldn't exist (except anything involving children). I think most American's think the same way. If only adults are allowed access to view then it should be fine...

Besides, if you don't trust your citizens to be mature about playing videogames, then what are you saying about your citizens? It seems a little demeaning tbh.

[dragnar]

What are the criteria for a game being banned in Australia? I mean, the US has the rating Ao, but it is hardly ever seen, and is regarded more as a death sentence from the ESRB because almost no store will stock them. How different would it really be not to have an 18+ rating?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Do you have something you want to say?

Would you hate to have someone tell you that you can't say it?

Apply your local culture's variant on the Golden Rule. Let cool to room temperature. Enjoy.

(If you have absolutely nothing that you'd like to say, why do you have a forum account?  )

[umiman]

Aqizzar: I guess I wasn't clear, my bad. I think everyone involved is pretty silly. The rating body is obviously too strict really. But the gaming community as usual overreacts to everything. And this author may have good points, but he gave us an impossible ultimatum. I guess I am silly now too, for getting involved in it.

But every single time I post something newsy, you come in and take a contrarian position every single time, so I think it's pretty justified that I've come to my conclusion. I'm not being anal about some minor dispute in which you were a total dick (joking), just stating the obvious facts that everyone else probably already noticed. We just have totally different ideologies. It's like a cannibal and vegetarian attempting to debate. I've asked some of the other Bay12-ers and they agree that we just never agree so I think it's pretty fair. There's really no point in us debating. Though I guess it could work as a form of conversation starter for the rest of the other forum populace. Alpha and Omega of the argument.  Huh... that's interesting... I'd rather debate a contrarian position with you than with some of the other people here who would no doubt attempt to articulate what you said in a more... convoluted manner.

Anyway, that's completely out the point of the topic as it stands. Right now, we're looking at a gaming censorship regulatory board who, in my opinion, while retarded, haven't exactly banned a lot of games which don't kinda suck anyway. The full list is on Wikipedia and I'm sure you agree, most of those are pretty crap. All the good ones (except Left 4 Dead 2 but I think Valve was trying to make a statement) got the ratings appealed and were released in the same condition as every other country. Just with an M rating.

Zangi: Good point, but still totally hypocritical. It simply means that while that does work, gamers can't take the moral high ground which they like to do as they just stooped to the level of the people they hate. To fight the enemy, they became the enemy, so to speak. Definitely smart, but I'm not too sure if it's in the gamer community's reputation's best interest.

Leo: ?

Edit: Looking through the Wikipedia game ban list, I think Germany and Brazil are worse. Everquest... seriously? For nudity? There's nudity in Everquest?

[Aqizzar]

But every single time I post something newsy, you come in and take a contrarian position every single time, so I think it's pretty justified that I've come to my conclusion. I'm not being anal about some minor dispute in which you were a total dick (joking), just stating the obvious facts that everyone else probably already noticed. We just have totally different ideologies. It's like a cannibal and vegetarian attempting to debate. I've asked some of the other Bay12-ers and they agree that we just never agree so I think it's pretty fair. There's really no point in us debating. Though I guess it could work as a form of conversation starter for the rest of the other forum populace. Alpha and Omega of the argument.  Huh... that's interesting... I'd rather debate a contrarian position with you than with some of the other people here who would no doubt attempt to articulate what you said in a more... convoluted manner.

Well, I usually post something contrariwise _{(Firefox doesn't recognize contrarian?)} because that's what I do, but really, I don't see the pattern.  If you say so though, I guess I just find a different position in things.  It's certainly not anything personal, so don't expect me to ignore your posts or something.  I think the stuff you bring up is interesting and I like seeing it, I just have something very different to say about it.

For that matter, I don't even understand the disagreement here.  If you think this rating body is too strict and silly, then we're on the same page.  I think your portrayal of the "gaming community" as a hormonal mob of idiotic clones is a gross oversimplification though, and I don't understand why you would try to make it.  But no matter.

Edit: Looking through the Wikipedia game ban list, I think Germany and Brazil are worse. Everquest... seriously? For nudity? There's nudity in Everquest?

There are thongs, and maybe naked humanoid monsters.  I think the bigger question is, who the fuck still plays Everquest?

[MrWiggles]

I think this debate should keep in mind with cultural differences. Mainly with just those that grown up in the US.

For the United States, freedom of speech, and self expression is an aspect that isn't matched in height and width in other countries, not even in our sister first world democracies.  Such as Australia. The United States has it to a nearly an absurd degree. A great degree, I think but that from my own cultural bias being raised in the US.

So, while there might be shared language, the meaning behind them may be different.

Now for my own two cents.

This is a nanny law that I participate here in the state to stop it from happening. (Billary I have my eye on you, even though you arent going to run for the senate any more.)

I do not believe a government has the ability to tell me what fictitious media I am allowed to enjoy. Especially when all research has shown that violent in fictitious media, does not make one more violent in their day to day life.

A government is wholly unable to decide what is and isn't art or socially weighty or culturally intriguing.

(This isn't to say I am not for regulatory bodies, just not government  appointed ones.)

And I find it absurd to say that gore, is not an art. For movies, and video games that gore has to be constructed. The gore has to be made with a group effort to get desired effect for the director.

GTA Vice City, San Andres, and GTA4 all had a narrative to them. San Andres was an interactive adult drama, as is GTA4. God of War has an original plot and rendition to greek mythology while still offering dyamic fun game play. Even the three some mini game  serve a purpose to show the gluttony of universe.

(stops ranting)

[Zangi]

Zangi: Good point, but still totally hypocritical. It simply means that while that does work, gamers can't take the moral high ground which they like to do as they just stooped to the level of the people they hate. To fight the enemy, they became the enemy, so to speak. Definitely smart, but I'm not too sure if it's in the gamer community's reputation's best interest.

Nor is it in the gamer community's best interest to say they want corpse/gore for the sake of it.  Thats downright dumber in my own view and opinion.

Eh, I don't see it as taking the moral high ground...   its more along the lines of eeking out common ground with someone who looks at you like a rabid dog... and probably actively says it too. Honestly, they are banning/nerfing corpse/gore for a reason.  They believe it makes children violent.  Plus, using this as their own morale high ground, they score points with the ignorant public.

Politicians are hypocrites... how do you fight and win against them with such a truth?  When that is the very reason why and how they got the ban/nerf in the first place....  and they probably have the support of the ignorant public on this matter.

And no... I don't believe these people are going to sit on their arses and keep quite about it. 
Either way, nothing gets changed without action.  Silence is acceptance.

[Agdune]

Aqizzar - Prostitution is legal (I think), but brothels and pimping aren't, so it's effectively non-existant outside of certain districts of certain cities. The reason X-rated porn is banned is for the same reason some games are banned - the definition used for what content is permissible and what isn't is completely and totally subjective (I think it uses the wording "any content that would be deemed offensive to the average person") and as the censorship board is mostly made up of 50 yr plus public servants who have no real link to what the modern 'average person' is, basically anything sexual that wouldn't be allowed on the comedy channel late on a saturday night is banned.

Also, saying it's acceptable to ban media that isn't tasteful or good is one hell of a pitfall. To offer up an extreme strawman, it was totally distasteful a hundred years ago to suggest that different races should mix. If we'd had a censorship board back then...? I'm not really saying that being able to disembowl zombies in games is comparable to ingrained racism, simply that allowing that kind of thinking to go on lets it become a wonderful tool to people with agendas and grudges.

[beorn080]

I think it would be an interesting challenge to Australia if someone drove a car with some of the more interesting artwork out there, and I mean the classic stuff too. I mean some of the stuff from the dark ages is pretty nasty. But then again Australia would probably wrap a towel around The Statue of David.

[umiman]

MrWiggles: All those games are allowed in Australia though.

I agree with you for the most part to the point that maybe America has *too much* freedom of speech, but I didn't say that *cough*. Of course, the problem with "I do not believe a government has the ability to tell me what fictitious media I am allowed to enjoy" is that when it comes to the obvious thing with sexual deviants. Or you know... things like Scientology. Heck, I was overjoyed when France banned Scientology. So there definitely are times when censorship has a place. Can you confidently state when and where those places are?

I think the best test is simply, when you are playing the game in question (or the movie, etc.), what do you feel when a little kid / spouse / parents / hamster watches you do what you do? Though of course, things brings up a whole new can of beans so... bleh.

Zangi: Perhaps we should consider what would happen with Australia's rating policy if there was no outrage from the gamer community? I think it would be interesting. This might be unrelated but as a Chinese, I can tell you that when it comes to Asia and Asian politics, the WORST way you can attempt to get an Asian government to do something is to cry foul in public and make a big public mess. The government will likely make what it is you're hating even worse. Take China for example and the latest Google scandal. There's no way China would change it's policy now that Google made it "lose face" in the global world. Perhaps the same might apply to Australia?

beorn080: I really think they would too.

[Agdune]

I hate acting all Mr. Porno in censorship threads and bringing it up over and over, but Umiman - can you just clarify what you meant by sexual deviants?

[umiman]

I hate acting all Mr. Porno in censorship threads and bringing it up over and over, but Umiman - can you just clarify what you meant by sexual deviants?

Pedophiles. Rapists. Pedophile rapists. Murder rapists. I don't really care about the rest.

[beorn080]

So criminals, not deviants. There is a key distinction there. Honestly, I'm not sure why any rapist/murder gets out of jail ever, but thats why they don't let me decide punishments.

[fenrif]

Australia really confuses me sometimes. How can a nation with drive through off-licenses think video games are a threat to peoples health?

[umiman]

So criminals, not deviants. There is a key distinction there. Honestly, I'm not sure why any rapist/murder gets out of jail ever, but thats why they don't let me decide punishments.

Oh, so that's the difference? I always thought they were one and the same. Though I guess you have to be a sexual deviant to be a sex criminal, but the reverse is not true.