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[DJ]

Since you mention Rand, is Atlas Shrugged worth reading? I wanted to read it to get some insight into minds of a certain kind of people, but I barely got through one chapter before I gave up because it was incredibly boring.

[Vector]

Since you mention Rand, is Atlas Shrugged worth reading? I wanted to read it to get some insight into minds of a certain kind of people, but I barely got through one chapter before I gave up because it was incredibly boring.

I read part of it and had to stop because the symbolism was trying to kill me.  I'm serious--it's the most ham-handed stuff I've ever seen, and yes I have read Moby Dick cover to cover.  It's a terribly-written novel about uninteresting things with irritatingly unsympathetic characters you're supposed to like.

In two words: skip it.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Since you mention Rand, is Atlas Shrugged worth reading? I wanted to read it to get some insight into minds of a certain kind of people, but I barely got through one chapter before I gave up because it was incredibly boring.

I just saved you 1084-1168 pages of reading this being preached to you (and yes, actually sermoned in story for much of the book).

I did read the entire thing, and speaking as a "humanist social constructivist" - if you want to apply labels - the book either reaffirms your belief in objectivist thought or makes you want to burn it and desecrate Ayn Rand's grave for good measure. It does not make a convincing argument (it beats you over the head with it) for those in ideological center nor is it a fun read.

EDIT: If I wanted to be preached to, I'd either read the excerpts from the Buddhist Pali Canon: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html

Read insane Norse, greek, latin, native american mythology...

Or look for crazy shit in the bible, one of my favourites:
One of the only confirmed ambidextrous men in the Bible is a holy assassin who stabs this corrupt fat king in the intestines and sprays his shit everywhere, the king's attendents think the king is just going to the restroom and don't go in until it is too late.
Douay-Rheims Bible:Book of Judges

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 And afterwards they cried to the Lord, who raised them up a saviour called Aod, the son of Gera, the son of Jemini, who used the left hand as well as the right. And the children of Israel sent presents to Eglon king of Moab by him.

16 And he made himself a two-edged sword, with a haft in the midst of the length of the palm of the hand, and was girded therewith under his garment on the right thigh. 17 And he presented the gifts to Eglon king of Moab. Now Eglon was exceeding fat. 18 And when he had presented the gifts unto him, he followed his companions that came along with him. 19 Then returning from Galgal, where the idols were, be said to the king: I have a secret message to thee, O king. And he commanded silence: and all being gone out that were about him, 20 Aod went in to him: now he was sitting in a summer parlour alone, and he said: I have a word from God to thee. And he forthwith rose up from his throne,

20 "A word from God"... What Aod, who was judge and chief magistrate of Israel, did on this occasion, was by a special inspiration of God: but such things are not to be imitated by private men.

21 And Aod put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly, 22 With such force that the haft went in after the blade into the wound, and was closed up with the abundance of fat. So that he did not draw out the dagger, but left it in his body as he had struck it in. And forthwith by the secret parts of nature the excrements of the belly came out. 23 But Aod carefully shutting the doors of the parlour and locking them, 24 Went out by a postern door. And the king's servants going in, saw the doors of the parlour shut, and they said: Perhaps he is easing nature in his summer parlour. 25 And waiting a long time till they were ashamed, and seeing that no man opened the door, they took a key: and opening, they found their lord lying dead on the ground.

26 But Aod, while they were in confusion, escaped...

[G-Flex]

Don't forget the 80-something page author filibuster.

I'm not trying to justify being egotistic, i like helping people. I'm just saying, i would help people if it didn't give me a nice and fuzzy feeling is all.

I'm going to assume you meant "wouldn't" there.

At any rate, you have to ask yourself why it gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling: If it's because you've decided that it's the right thing to do, then the root cause of it isn't egotistical: The reason you enjoy it is because you've decided that being altruistic is good.


Also, there are plenty of times when helping other people has caused me a decent amount of misery. I still do it.

[eerr]

Optimism is for suckers.  What few joys there are as satisfying as tearing down another's dreams and memories.  And yet you guys think Encyclopedia Dramatica is lame.  Fascinating.

Armok, you have a very strange definition of "earliest".

Armok was late to the internet... Something about obsessing about "purity of the console" and the instructions "cd, unencrypt Xxx_Xx, longcat master_plan"

He's just on the internet for the money.





(double post Semi-fix)

[eerr]

Because you'll miss it when it's gone, that's why.  All of you will, mark my words.

Hahah, something i would miss are these two gems :

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/kim_jong_il_announces_plan_to
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/congo_approves_economic_stimulus

[Servant Corps]

Someone really needs to create a thread where we can talk about the North Korean offical propaganda and newspapers. I really like them a lot, especially when I roleplayed as a North Korean diplomat during a forum game.

KaelGotDwarves: Don't you got to...till the soil...when you got a bureacratic society? I mean, they got no super-robots there either. The only difference is that, now that you got rid of that society, you got nobody telling you what to do, thereby meaning that people are free to engage in innovation/oppression/whatever they so desire. You still have to do certain stuff, like tilling the soil, but once you do the absolute minimum necessary to survive, you might engage in other pursuits.

Is Ayn Rand an anarchist by any chance? Because the concept of removing the coercive nature of the state seems a bit...too...left-wing...

EDIT: Okay, maybe Ayn Rand wants anarcho-capitalism here. But you still need some sort of government to enforce contracts and protect property rights, right? Without contracts, without any assurance that Person B will in fact be paid for services rendered to Person A. And without property rights, I can never be assured that my piece of land that I'm tilling would be safe from evil squatters. I think laws are not really necessary, but contracts and private property protections, however limited, is likely needed in a right-wing free market.

Ayn Rand must be smart though, why else would people buy his books? Maybe he has some trumpt card that would allow for capitalism to exist without the government.

[Leafsnail]

I absolutely love their official website.  It's better than any parody could possibly be.

...Seriously.  You can buy a signed photo of Kim Jong Il there.  Also, I like this quote:

Full diplomatic relations with most EU members and rest of countries.

And their export list.  I mean, their so called "Animation Guide" is just a couple of pages of pictures and random words.

EDIT: Hehe, they include "High Concentrated Mercury" on their main list of exports.  Wow.

[Servant Corps]

North Korea also have a lot of friends too. Here's a couple of article summaries from the US Group for the Study of Songun, led by John Paul Cupp.

I actually have saved a copy of the poem John Paul Cupp wrote on my computer. I was thinking of broadcasting it in some Black and White LP where I would play as some leader of the North Korean Space Program.

[G-Flex]

Ayn Rand must be smart though, why else would people buy his books?

First off, you don't know Ayn Rand very well, judging by both the post content and the wrong gender pronoun.


Seriously, she's a wingnut. She just happens to be a wingnut who satisfied a niche that needed filling.

And someone selling books doesn't mean that they know jack squat about anything. Hell, Ayn Coulter has been prominent on bestseller lists before.

[Servant Corps]

Thought she was a female, but had some doubt and didn't want to use the female pronoun only to get embarrsed to find out Ayn Rand was a male.

I'm saying she's smart in the fact that she must have something coherent that appeals to at least some people. Ayn Rand is a wingnut, but a wingnut must have some sort of ideology, and I want to know what that is, and how she would respond to questions about them.

[G-Flex]

Thought she was a female, but had some doubt

I still do sometimes!


Ayn Rand definitely has an ideology. The problem is that, like a lot of prominent ideologues, she takes her ideas and RUNS with them. I mean, follows them to their logical conclusion no matter how completely ridiculous. You should hear what she had to say about the Native Americans.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Ayn Rand's objectivist ideals are born from an extreme hatred of Communist Soviet Russia and their failed "liberal" policies. She embraced individualistic "rational" self-interest to the point of irrationality - writing about "supermen" who drove society forward who had to battle forces like the government and her "weak, useless, poor people", wrote preachy fiction that was preaching to the choir, and is whole-heartedly embraced by American far-right/fascist wing conservative objectivists and white nationalists who grumble that she should have been a white anglo male instead of a slav female.

Jokes on them!

Also: In Fountainhead she had a character that boasted of being a reverse Robin Hood, I quote: “He was the man who robbed the rich and gave to the poor. I’m the man who robs the poor and gives to the rich, or to be more exact, the man who robs the thieving poor and gives back to the productive rich.” she went to great lengths in her story to portray these types of people as heroes and "good".

Yes Ayn Rand, those poor people sure deserve to be stolen from for having absolutely nothing and needing to steal to survive. Let's all steal from each other! Poor people starving to death just befoul the pristine streets of the investment bankers, who were born into families with money, pushing our great society forward. Janitors who were born into families with income of $20000 are holding these great men back when they demand pay above starvation rates!

[Servant Corps]

Being a janitor might actually pay well, Kael. Not everyone want to engage in such a work, so the few that do have a chance of making some good money.

Also: In Fountainhead she had a character that boasted of being a reverse Robin Hood, I quote: “He was the man who robbed the rich and gave to the poor. I’m the man who robs the poor and gives to the rich, or to be more exact, the man who robs the thieving poor and gives back to the productive rich.” she went to great lengths in her story to portray these types of people as heroes and "good".

Well, Ayn Rand luckily got some sort of "get out of jail free" card with the word "productive". He (Bizzaro Robin Hood) might be interested in stealing money from "beggars" and "parasistes" (janitors and laborers are obivously not theiving, so don't steal from them) and throwing money to corporate leaders who are actually good at running corporations (idiot corporate leaders responsible for the stock market crash...need not apply). Or something to that effect. (I take the view that Robin Hood was just a robbing hoodlum, and that the legend of Robin Hood just giving money to the poor came later.)

Still is a bit disturbing. Ayn Rand is basically wanting random individuals to do everything , even manage corporate welfare? And she hates the concept of a government that could actually PROTECT contracts? She's a left-wing wacko. You can't rely on self-scarificing robber barons, and without any guarrante that private property and contracts will be protected by someone, it'd be hard to think such a society would become capitalist...

[Truean]

Also: In Fountainhead she had a character that boasted of being a reverse Robin Hood, I quote: “He was the man who robbed the rich and gave to the poor. I’m the man who robs the poor and gives to the rich, or to be more exact, the man who robs the thieving poor and gives back to the productive rich.” she went to great lengths in her story to portray these types of people as heroes and "good".

That was in Altas Shrugged too. Ragnar Danneskjold or however you spell it.

Still is a bit disturbing. Ayn Rand is basically wanting random individuals to do everything , even manage corporate welfare? And she hates the concept of a government that could actually PROTECT contracts? She's a left-wing wacko. You can't rely on self-scarificing robber barons, and without any guarrante that private property and contracts will be protected by someone, it'd be hard to think such a society would become capitalist...

Actually she said government's only proper role was to protect men from other men via the courts, protect men from invaders via the military, and protect men from the government itself.

*shrugs*

Her philosophy was basically that everyone could take care of themselves and only trade voluntarily. Great theory, but not likely in this reality.

My only real problem with capitalism is that neoclassical economics assumes everyone has perfect information. If we knew what all the banks were doing before this nice big recession hit, it never would have happened.


Anyhow, what was this thread originally about again?