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[Fualkner]

I think that almost every single animal could realistically be trained to be a hunting or war Whatever. Will they necessarily be strong as a dog? No. Stronger? Possibly. But, as of yet, there is almost no purpose to having cats, camels, ect. If it can't be trained, it's next to useless.

So, the proposition. A big ol' toggle in the init: All train. If it's a regular creature, such as a pike or a hoary marmot, it can be trained as usual. If it's savage, magical, megabeast, or some other special condition, it is trainable as an exotic creature. Intelligent = No training. I think I'd just give more meaning to catching those bears. War bears. CMON!

In the meantime, can existing files be given the [TRAINABLE] tag without generating a new world? I'd like to train my modded muskrats.

[Kagus]

Thing about [PET_EXOTIC] in native DF, is that they're only applied to cave creatures.  The dungeon master is a dwarf who has dedicated his life to understanding the creatures that dwell beneath the earth, along with whatever precious metals and such might appear down there.  He is an underground-centric trainer, so there is no reason why he would know how to deal with an alligator or a harpy.  He just understands naked mole dogs, and loves them for their oh-so-wrinkly skin.  Mmm, wrinkles...

*Ahem*...  Anyways, there also lies the problem in that not all animals are really all that intelligent, and if they are they might not want to be trained.  Dogs are rather intelligent creatures, and they are very keen on doing what their leader wants.  As such, they are perfect candidates for training purposes.

Cats, while they may be intelligent, have absolutely no inclination to do what you want them to do.  Attempting to train a cat is a lengthy and dreadful process that can never truly be called successful.  Trying to get them to charge into combat or sneak along beside you in the hunt would be a futile effort.

Horses are just dumb.  They can, with significant training, be conditioned to not follow their own thoughts.  War horses are not called war horses because they charge into battle and start stomping stuff, they are called war horses because they have been conditioned to not panic or change their course under the chaotic stress of war.  A perfectly-trained horse would only ever do what its rider told it to do, and would always do that.  There are exceptions, of course, but I've only seen one horse that will pull a beer out of the fridge for you.  Also, horse are not particularly stealthy creatures, and are only of use in a hunt when you're in an all-out chase.

Bears.  They are independent, and thus not instinctually tuned towards following something else's orders.  They are also only moderately intelligent, but they can be taught simple tricks.  I don't care how much war bears and bear cavalry units rampage through the internet, they're just not likely.

War cows.  I'm not even going to go there.

Raccoons.  Worse than cats.

Pikes, carp, sturgeons, lampreys, and sharks.  Something that can still perform most of its standard actions without the need for its head should not really be considered intelligent.

Foul blendec.  It can't even decide if it's undead or not,  how would it be able to learn complex commands?

[Okenido]

quote:Originally posted by Fualkner:
<STRONG>In the meantime, can existing files be given the [TRAINABLE] tag without generating a new world? I'd like to train my modded muskrats.</STRONG>

Yes you can add the trainable tag to animals without starting a new world or fortress. I've done it myself.

[Fualkner]

Kagus, I've seen various animal shows in which cats, pigs, and many others were trained to run to various points and jump, ect. Training them wouldn't be too hard, in my opinion. There should be a difficulty based on how odd the creature is, and there should be the chance to fail at taming/training the creature, thereby blocking it from being trained ever again. But since the [TRAINABLE] tag can be added to anything, I suppose I'll just go alter my game to do this.

Thanks for the info Okenido.

[Haven]

I thought the Dungeon Master liked fell beasts and treasture of all kinds, not just underground. Being a dwarf, he'd probably have more experience with it, but that wouldn't make it exclusive, would it? At least, not with dwarves without any experience being able to train dogs, smelt, and cook just fine.

At any rate, I suppose the net question would be 'hey, what the heck, short critters who live underground and need beer aren't feasible!'

[Cavalcadeofcats]

Yeah, the Dungeon Master lives underground... just like all dwarves. Why would he specialize in taming underground creatures more than any other dwarf? His purpose isn't that - he's just there to tame really weird animals in general.

See, for the first example I could find, Giant Desert Scorpions, which are [PET_EXOTIC].

For the main post, which I got rather distracted from, sure, why not - though I think there might be issues with the embarkation screen. (Having trainable might make, for instance, bears appear for purchase on embarkation - which would be slightly silly.

[sir diesalot]

quote:Originally posted by Cavalcadeofcats:
<STRONG>(Having trainable might make, for instance, bears appear for purchase on embarkation - which would be slightly silly.</STRONG>

The [PET_DOMESTIC} or something like that tag makes them usable from embark screen

[Dasleah]

quote:Originally posted by Fualkner:
<STRONG>Kagus, I've seen various animal shows in which cats, pigs, and many others were trained to run to various points and jump, ect. Training them wouldn't be too hard, in my opinion. There should be a difficulty based on how odd the creature is, and there should be the chance to fail at taming/training the creature, thereby blocking it from being trained ever again. But since the [TRAINABLE] tag can be added to anything, I suppose I'll just go alter my game to do this.

Thanks for the info Okenido.</STRONG>

Yeah, but there's a difference between training an animal to fetch your morning newspaper and be reliable in combat. There's a massive difference and step up required in intelligence. I could train a cow to follow me, but train it to sneak around a target (in terrain it's never been in, against a target it's never seen) and attack on a silent cue, pin the creature in place, wait until I kill it, and then release it - or even chase it if necessary. And it's harder still with carnivorous animals - their natural instinct is to eat a kill and defend it against anyone who tries to take it. It's instinctual and it's taken us thousands of years to even come to close to breeding that behaviour out of dogs (and that only works because all dog training relies on establishing the owner as the Alpha Male, a hierarchy that a lot of animals - especially herbivores -  don't have)

[Neskiairti]

some animals, cant be trained.. some can..
the bigger cats, can be very well trained.. pigs.. one of the most trainable animals on the planet.. monkeys apes and so forth.. very trainable, and beyond that, teachable.. few animals are truely teachable.. some birds, very trainable and a few are teachable (not even by species, but a few in certain species).

bovines btw, are very trainable

some one should probably go through the list and determine what animals are trainable, and what arnt..

[Haven]

I think the problem is the difference between a Hunting Cow and a War Cow.

A hunting cow would need to move quietly. A Hunting ANYTHING would probably need to be a carnivore in the first place. But from there, there doesn't need to be any training beyond 'hunt with me, wait 'till I say to attack, and don't eat the food until it's divvied up'.

A War Cow, however, would have to do little more than attack something on command, and not eat the thing until all the other things trying to attack it were dead. Which could work for anything that needs to defend itself. This might be relegated to bulls, in the War Cow case.

After all, war elephants aren't fiction, and they had to do a lot more than jsut rush an enemy. And yet we can't train them in DF, where things can spontaniousy generate fireballs and otherwise violate laws of physics, alongside cave-swallowmen and flying skeletal eagles.

[Cthulhu]

You all seem to be forgetting the fact that we're playing a FANTASY game.  A FANTASY game with goblins, dragons, hydra, undead, and dwarves.  It's not real, it doesn't have to conform to the real world.  I say give them their war marmots.  It doesn't affect your game if you don't like it.

[Neskiairti]

hunting cow.. yea.. tough call there but depends on what your hunting.. a hunting pig on the other hand ive seen. war cow would work. -pictures a mighty armored War cow which menaces with spikes of cow- (horns, you know?)

there are other things animals should be trained for other than hunting and war though..  pack animal.. work animal..
work animal would pull a plow, a cart, turn a gear assembly nigh on tirelessly.
Pack animal would certainly be useful, carrying stones and what not for some one going about doing stuff..

[Dasleah]

Here's my suggestion to clarify the situation: More tags. [TRAINABLE_WAR] and [TRAINABLE_HUNTING] to specify what a creature could be trained for. So, a Cow (for instance) would have [TRAINABLE_WAR] on it, because you don't need to be that intelligent to train any animal to run up to a Bad Guy (or at least point them in the right direction) Whether you'd want to, however, is another matter - Cows would be naturally cowardly and have very weak attacks. War training could imply all manner of things, really - training a Cow to be cannon (erm, crossbow) fodder could still be War training, I suppose  :p

[Neskiairti]

not met many cows have you

remember, cows are just female bulls.. and bulls are just male cows

[ May 18, 2008: Message edited by: Neskiairti ]

[Cthulhu]

It's true, with the right persuasion(Probably involving testicular discomfort) I could see a bull doing some serious damage.