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[nenjin]

I did some searches and there a few threads months old, but none really seem to capture this idea, so...

In an effort to further complicate established fortress life....The Thief.

The Thief would be a secret job that is assigned to one of your non-legendary dwarves once your wealth/population reaches a certain level. The Thief would also require the dwarven economy to be active.

While "working" the thief would read as "on break."  They would regularly walk into people's rooms and take items from them. The owner gets an unhappy thought when the announcement "Urist McLandowner has discovered +Goblin Bone Earrings+ missing from his room!" shows up.

The Thief would store these items in secret on their person (Yes, that's a little out there if they've been active for a long time, and breaks the encumbrance limit rules, but it makes more sense than them storing it in their room...or creating containers that you would eventually discover.)

The Thief can only be uncovered by the Captain of the Guard and members of the Fortress guard. It would be a proximity-based test relying on the Judge of Intent skill. (Or perhaps some others.)

Once revealed, the thief stops being a member of your fortress and is treated as a hostile, and flees toward the nearest exit. This is a natural reaction, since the punishment for stealing from the fortress is death anyways. If you choose to imprison the thief by using cage traps or whatever, you'll have to contend with their superior restraint and door opening skills. (Perhaps the Thief has a secret job level that impacts these tests.) Best just to cut the bastards hands off and throw him into magma.

When the thief is revealed, they drop all the stolen loot they have, and the owners of recovered loot all get a big happy thought for seeing justice done. There would an interval period between the discovering of one thief and the activation of another.

Some caveats-

-Nobles cannot be chosen as the thief. They own everything, after all.

-At the time of Thief selection, any active military dwarves are excluded.

-Members of the Fortress Guard are never chosen as the thief.

-Legendary dwarves cannot be chosen as the thief. Thieves that become legendary stop being thieves, a new thief is selected, and the loot is placed in their inventory. That way it's like the original thief was never really active. The same applies to thieves who are moved into the fortress guard.

-Thieves do not steal, and cannot be revealed, while they are active members of the military who are on duty. This would prevent players from systematically stationing dwarves next to the Cpt. of the Guard to try and reveal the thief.

-Thieves that are part of the military DO steal when they are off duty, and can be revealed then.

-Thieves who are killed by something else (magma, goblins, HFS, ect...) would inadvertently be revealed when they die and their corpse is sitting on top of a mountain of loot.

While it would be cool to have a whole thieves guild running in the fortress, because you need to punish thieves and they would ultimately become an enemy of the fortress, you don't want to tie up a lot of the population doing it. And people will already be >< enough when a promising dwarf they were looking at turns out to be a klepto.

This might also encourage some fortress owners to take better care of their dwarves.....especially if an artifact has gone missing. Would be a shame to have that new peasant miner go dig out your magma channel...and watch some valuable stuff go up in flames.

There could be some additional traits that affect thief selection, such as:

-Personality types
-Room quality
-Average seasonal income
-# of owned items
-Raw agility
-Deity (God of Thieves?)
-Highest job skill (The least skilled job being the most likely to take up thievery)

Traits could also affect who the thief decides to steal from/what they steal:
-Dislikes authority (Wealthier citizens)
-Doesn't care about others (Anyone, or particularly the poor)
-Confident (Goes after high priced items, artifacts, the King's Throne, ect...)
-Doesn't do more than is necessary (prefers cheap, easy to get items)
-Other traits that affect how often the thief decides to steal.

And on.

There would still be ways to try and corner the thief...but they would be time-consuming (rotating people in and out of the Guard and military to zero in on the thief) and would disrupt work flow, so obsessively trying to locate the thief would come with it's own penalties.

[HatfieldCW]

I don't much like the idea of these things being hidden from the player, though.  After all, we can see their thoughts and emotions right there in black and green.

Why have a specific individual be the thief?  Couldn't we just have crime in the game, and then have a propensity for crime be among the traits?  Urist McKlepto has sticky fingers.  Urist McKlepto enjoyed pilfering lately.  Reg McSucker was shocked to have been burgled recently.  Kiv McGuard took pride in catching a thief lately.  Urist McKlepto was ashamed to be caught stealing recently.  Two months in the gem-encrusted gulag later and he's back on the streets.  Three strikes and you're hammered.

[nenjin]

I guess I prefer the mystery of it I suppose, eyeballing your peasants and going "Which of you bastards is robbing me?" I like unique fort personalities, and as the Dwarven Wizard shows, I like active internal threats running around your fortress.

Wrapping crime into everyone's daily activities just seems, I dunno, less interesting, less personal, less RPG-y and more Sim-y. This is mostly inspired by Dwarven Thieves I've played in pen and paper and other video games...so I'd have more fun with a thief who is a professional, and takes a professional to catch, than just random, day-to-day crime.

As for hiding things from the player, that's a necessity at times to preserve the mystique. Players shouldn't be omnipotent. And there's always memory dumps, after all.

After all, we can see their thoughts and emotions right there in black and green.

Perhaps this could be part of the sleuthing though. Why IS this peasant, living in a 1x2 unsmoothed room with just a bed, making 45 DB a month, who hasn't had many happy thoughts cross his way, so freaking happy? So stick your Cpt next to them while they're working and blamo, you have your answer and it's one you figured out for yourself.

[Steely Glint]

I think I agree with HatfieldCW, in that I'd prefer a more organic approach to crime. Your suggestion seems a little too "gamey" for DF, which is at its heart (IMHO) a sim and not an RPG. I agree that there shouldn't be a "Burglarizing" job, so a thieving dwarf would be listed as "On Break" or "Attend Party" if he's pickpocketing partygoers.

A dwarf who has a taste for crime due to his personality traits will steal if he's desperate, or even if he's not desperate given extreme enough traits. A dwarf skilled at lying or sneaking (the possibly inappropriately named Ambusher skill) would be more likely to get away with it. Like any task, stealing would increase the associated skills and you could eventually end up with a criminal mastermind.

You could also have interesting effects like a criminal repeatedly stealing from a dwarf that he has a grudge against, or otherwise making the target of his grudge miserable.

[Footkerchief]

I think I agree with HatfieldCW, in that I'd prefer a more organic approach to crime. Your suggestion seems a little too "gamey" for DF, which is at its heart (IMHO) a sim and not an RPG.

Yeah, I concur.  The general themes in the OP are good, but the mechanics feel contrived and restrictive -- they emphasize rigid roles acting in narrow, predictable ways.

[nenjin]

I agree, it is game-y. But I think it's flexible enough to allow it to be played multiple ways. You could just leave it alone, and wait for the right combination of circumstances (your thief and your Cpt taking a break next to each other) and that's more sim-like.

Or you could take a proactive approach, and actually game it. Whichever appeals more to the player.

The point is, again, a singular personality that has an impact on fortress life. You sort of dilute that when you make theft a general behavior amongst the population. That's more sim-like, and accomplishes that goal better, it's true...but a master thief personality sounds more fun. At least to me.

And when you make their behavior more skill-dependent, like you want, that's closer to being RPG-y. Like, if the Liar skill contests against the Judge of Intent skill. So if you have a veteran thief and a new Cpt and Fortress Guard...their chances of revealing him are lower until they get some crime fighting experience.

And I was just thinking property theft.....pickpocketing adds a WHOLE new level to it. But with dwarven currency as broken as it is, they'd be stealing from dwarves' expense accounts. Still works, just breaks immersion a little but that's no big thing.

Also, I don't think desperation should always factor into theft. Many steal for the sheer thrill of it, or because they're greedy, not needy.

If the "catching the thief" part seems too gamey, it's because I feel like the Cpt. of the Guard doesn't have enough to do. Maybe I haven't played enough, or had a fortress with enough problems...but the Cpt. and the Hammerer seem a little redundant at times. Both will put a hurting on criminals, the Hammerer just doesn't do imprisonment duty. So the gameyness of the Thief idea is related to making the law enforcement role of the Cpt. more important, and give it more depth. He's not just cracking skulls or throwing people in the slammer, he's trying to uncover other legal problems that are plaguing the fort.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I also concur with HatfieldCW, theft and crime in general should be the result of traits and motivational factors on the individual. 

Ware I think you go wrong is to try to apply the logic of the player controlled 'nobles' (Trader, Stockbroker) apply to crime.  The Nobles are really UI tools for the player, a way for them to do some special 'tasks' inside the environment.  Crime though is not a task for the player and isn't going to benefit in the same way.  You speak of having a 'Master Thief' as being a fun element but their is nothing that prevents a dwarf from becoming a master at what they do simply because the motivation for doing it is not magically zapped into their head by a RNG. 

As for criminal motivation, I'd say may the number of fortress guards a factor, lots of guards mean criminal behavior is inhibited.  Wealth disparity can be another factor, lack of gainful work opportunities should also be a big factor.  Each cause can interact with a dwarf in a different way, a Greed trait is going to be driven more by wealth disparity and a dwarf with low impulse control isn't going to be inhibited by the presence of Guards, each motivation has a trait it's working on.  This makes crime complex and prevents the player from ever completely eliminating it in a large group just as in a real society.  But the player still gets a reward for their mitigation efforts as some crime is prevented, the original propose really gives the player no way to prevent crime as it's like some kind of criminal 'strange mood' that posses dwarves at random.

Detecting criminals should bed more realistic, if someone is actively commuting a crime and a guard is near they could be detected and get hostile flagged.  Owners of stolen items should report to a guard who will have a chance to detect the item either on the thief or in the thief's quarters.

Overall though I think "Crime" is a portion of the game that could see a LOT of improvement, it's a got the potential to be a great challenge to the player and an on going one that can't be solved by the application of lava (well not in any way that has the fort continue to exist). 

[darkflagrance]

Someone posted in the "Recreational Drugs" thread that we need "criminal catalysts", reasons to become criminal. Perhaps we have some dwarves who are klepto or greedy by nature. However, the general thief mechanic could see more use if it was also caused by things such as lack of money causing starvation, or desire to own an item at a shop that was too expensive.

Also, after we add thieves, we should add serial killers who work on similar mechanics.

[Safe-Keeper]

Actually, thinking about it, I like both ideas. Once you get to a certain size (perhaps at the onset of the economy), you could have people taking items from stockpiles, shops and other dwarves' rooms, and you'd probably have to have to use the fortress guard or the military or whatever to deter and capture criminals. I can picture fortress guard units hanging out at shops and stockpiles, acting as a police force of sorts (ie. actually making themselves useful).

[nenjin]

I didn't really see the "Master Thief" as a noble. It's the autonomy that might make it seem that way. To me, it's the difference between organized crime (professional criminals) and societal crime (crime of passion, which we already have, economically-motivated crime, pure greed.)

The game could benefit from BOTH types IMO. But there should be a separation between a dwarf who, say, takes an item without paying for it (Hello new random way to bring justice down!), and a dwarf who steals because they like to steal, or because they're damn good at it.

So maybe we start with crime at the social level, and eventually it upgrades to something more like thief. Again, you should know crime is happening, but you shouldn't always be omnipotent to stop it, and some crime should reach the level where you need to deal with it personally, rather than just letting that process be automated. Sort of like "serial killers"....although I don't know if I'd want to go there.

[Diablous]

I like the idea, but agree with foot. Good idea, but your mechanics are too restrictive.

[HatfieldCW]

Is this sort of thing even on the drawing board?  I think it would be awesome to have social interaction deepened a bit, so that dwarves could have enemies and bad opinions of other citizens of the fort, which crime could feed into.  I'm imagining this leading to secondary and tertiary opinions, spread by gossip, so that factions and gangs could arise.  Lack of structured activity would mean that the only thing the metalsmiths know about the fisherdwarfs is what the masons tell them, so insular social groups would have parties and not invite certain neighbors, or refuse to talk to them during meals, or whatever.  At the same time, if you have everyone work together on something, then prejudices will be blunted by direct social contact, and guys who didn't get along will become more tolerant of one another, bringing positive stories about "Those damn soap-making migrants in the unengraved wing of the dormitory" back to their social circle and promoting fort-wide peace and civility.  Or maybe they'll have a fight and the Sheriff will have to bring in the Guard and bust a few heads.  Either way, good stuff.

I'm worried about introducing "bad behavior" so long as there are no pavlovian learning principles.  If a dwarf's "criminal deportment" would go up whenever he benefits from crime and go down every time he's punished, then it'd be a fun game to keep the fortress guard sharp enough to prevent crime from spreading, and a lawless fort would descend into anarchy, with crimes and fights breaking out all over the place, leading to unhappy thoughts and civil wars.

[Footkerchief]

Is this sort of thing even on the drawing board? 

For Adv. Mode, yes, and possibly for Fortress Mode too:

# CRIME AND PUNISHMENT ARC: There should be mild punishments for mild crimes, for instance. This could include making the drunks in the town more interesting and adding bar fights, as well as proper thievery, arrest, imprisonment, execution... Related to Core82, Core83, Req303, Req327, Req366, Bloat53, Bloat75, Bloat143, PowerGoal14, PowerGoal22, PowerGoal23, PowerGoal25, PowerGoal26, PowerGoal38, PowerGoal47, PowerGoal66, PowerGoal80, PowerGoal91, PowerGoal99, PowerGoal124, PowerGoal126, PowerGoal136 and PowerGoal146.

# Core82, THIEF AND SUPPORTING CAST, (Future): Aside from the issues dealt with in the next dev item, a thief in adventure mode can only sell their items all the way over at the next civilization and is immediately considered a criminal throughout the original civilization, causing subsequent thefts there to be more the acts of a crazed bandit than a thief. There are lots of ways in which this should be fixed. Crimes should not immediately be tied to the adventurer, and in large enough cities, there should be enough of an underbelly to be a successful criminal without even leaving town, at least for a while. None of the existing cities are really large enough for this right now, though the most populous cities of large empires should be after the relevant dev items are complete. Whether general criminal behavior will be extended to dwarf mode, beyond what's there now, is an open question.

# Core83, ARREST AND PUNISHMENT, (Future): The guards shouldn't just kill you. You have rights, sort of. It's important that there are jails and dungeons and executions, anyway. The guards will need to arrest you to put you into the system, and once you've been arrested there are various delicate steps that need to be performed properly for everything work out. Whatever happens in adventure mode should be tied back in to dwarf mode. If this includes beard-shaving, well, you'd better just obey the law.

# PowerGoal14, THE SYSTEM, (Future): You are apprehended, brought to a jail, chained to the wall, interrogated and beaten, brought before the ruler, sentenced, put on public display locked in stocks, subjected to thrown vegetables and ridicule, brought up to a platform and executed.

# PowerGoal66, IT WAS WORTH THE TIME, (Future): The guards are hunting you because you have a stolen diamond. You dip into a group of mourners that are a viewing a body just as the guards appear. They dare not stop you from slipping into the solemn crowd. You pretend to mourn the body, holding its head in your hand as you hide the diamond in the corpse's mouth. Although you are subsequently apprehended and imprisoned for twenty years, after you are released, you dig up the body and claim the prize.

# PowerGoal99, IMPENDING JAIL BREAK, (Future): The assassin visits you in jail, pulls out the knife, covered with blood, and tells you that the job has been done. The assassin cleans the knife and hands it to you between the bars. Dousing the torch on the wall, the assassin slips away. You hide the knife and wait for the jailer to come.

[nenjin]

Not surprised they've already got ideas. Like I said, maybe this could be a graduated form of crime, much like the true nobles are a graduated form of the Mayor and others.

[Soulbourne]

Hmm, having a system comprised of both casual crime and organized could be interesting.  It would allow for a nice two faction group for police to deal with, the organized criminals who would be better equipped to avoid them through many means, and far more dangerous; and the casual criminals who are just doing it freelance for personal reasons.

Could have a "noble" setting for one dwarf who has tendencies towards thievery starting at economy, then have him(or other "guild members") pickup dwarves they catch thieving and invite them in.  Say have it be a max of 2-3% of the fortress at any one time, with old ones either dying or maybe retiring after some time.