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[DDR]

If you are adventuring with a wizard, I think that he should start off reasonably, then get strong, then start to get too strong... Something of a 'well, he defeated the wolf pack, but the local thermonuclear explosion he did it with also killed him as well'. So, you start to loose the ability to use magic in a safe manner. Fun.

But, seriously, sometimes I'd just like to see these guys explode in a large ball of fire. /outside/.

Or: Urist McWizardy was displeased with his visit.
Urist McWizardy sealed your entrance shut with a gabbro wall.

Then you have to dig it out. Again.

Whatever magic happens, I'd like to see it moderately controllable and only moderately dangerous.

Just had to get my 2c in.

[Dvergar]

But we assume gravity always works the same, as we would assume most laws of physics in dwarven worlds are common to each other

That is an interesting notion... could the laws of physics change (slightly) from world to world?

[Aquillion]

But we assume gravity always works the same, as we would assume most laws of physics in dwarven worlds are common to each other, doesn't mean magic can't work the same way, just a question of how its exhibited more like as far as I'm concerned.

Sort-of.  There can be some very basic underlying assumptions, but I think the optimal goal is to try and give it the potential to mimic most of the major fantasy, mythological, and religious portrayals of magic to some extent, rather than tying it to one specific set of rules.

Most of those worlds, say, portray the same laws of physics.  They don't portray the same laws of magic, so there has to be some range of variation in terms of the kind of magical paradigms that the game can handle.

And mostly, like I said, it's important to avoid metaphysical assumptions that confine the setting.  No "all magic is dangerous and eventually makes you go insane", say, because that would carry heavy implications for the setting.  No "all magic comes from the gods", because it should be possible to gen a world with no real gods.

Which doesn't mean that specific suggestions aren't useful to Toady, I think, but he probably views them the same way he views Threetoe's story -- "now, how can I make a generator that could theoretically produce this" rather than "all right, let's hardcode this implementation of magic in."

Of course, there are realistic limitations to what world-generation can handle, so to an extent that's just an ideal goal.  There does have to be an underlying mechanism, but it should be concealed and made general enough that it can encompass everything from fireball-throwing wizards to weird ancestor cults to worlds where all magic involves huge complicated rituals and would be useless in straightforward fights.  (Or, of course, you could have worlds where all of those traditions of magic exist at once.)

A lot of people request one very specific implementation of magic ("please make magic X" or "please don't make magic Y"), and to me that's like asking for the world to not have too many oceans; it misses the point.

[nenjin]

but it should be concealed and made general enough that it can encompass everything from fireball-throwing wizards to weird ancestor cults to worlds where all magic involves huge complicated rituals and would be useless in straightforward fights.  (Or, of course, you could have worlds where all of those traditions of magic exist at once.)

That's a pretty tall order, but it sounds cool. That goes to my "suitably random" requirements pretty well. I would forgo a lot of visible (and invisible) structure if his "crappy magic generator" could pull that off.

[Toastergargletop]

See my sig.  Or, if you want a direct link here, this post.

Yep, that pretty much settles it. Not really going to get my hopes up on deeply worked system. I'm sure whatever he comes up with will be fun, but "cheap fantasy universe generator" seems at odds with a really worked up magic system.

i disagree.  if there are a number of styles of magic, and have each style based on a linage (IE master teaches apprentice back to year 0),  your world could have lost magical arts, strong traditions of magic users, civilisations adopting certain styles of magic; i would see this as an enriching facet of such a generator.

just wanted to bring this up again because i thint that this is what you are all talking about.

the "styles" of magic i am talking about encompass circle magic, rituals, voodoo, whatever you want.  these "styles" or "schools" can be based on that biome specific magic, maybe swamp dwelling civs use voodoo (or whatever name it would be), mountain dwellers use runes, plainsmen use fetishes.

note that this might mean that magic Schools aren't race specific, and that schools might vary between a dwarven race that is in joyous wilds and one that is in wilderness.

[BlazingDav]

I'd call them magic cultures personally (different exhibitions of magic from the fire ball flinging to fancy ceremony), that way each one can exist as its own entity and if you felt like it bung them all into one world, would be like civs almost

[JamPet]

I don't know wouldn't a mood that results in distinctive magic capacity sort of have flavours like normal moods do? fey, secretive, possessed, fell and macabre? Maybe magc could be its own mood, but flavours would make it more exciting, though a dwarf gaining magic in such a way would be able to learn and write a new way of magic as he pleases, moods like this could be how magic disciplines are born.

This is what I'd like to see dwarven magic most be like.  To me, dwarven magic should come from artifacts and strange moods.  We already have a great semi-mystic system where a dwarf goes into a trance of unknown origin and spits out something valuable/practical/useless.  The only thing needed to do to put in some fun magic effects is add in a new kind of magic mood and dream up some cool results that can come out of it (And program it, always the most daunting part).  It certainly would not satisfy everyone, but I think it strikes a good balance and can be expanded later when it is possible to have wizard grimoires and wrath of god type spells if it becomes possible and desireable later on.

The mooded dwarf would request a few gems and logs and bones as normal, but also one or two more 'mystic'-seeming elements.  Say, the corpse of a freshly slain hostile, or a weapon that has killed a dwarf, or even some suspiciously specific mundane object such as WILD STRAWBERRY seeds or OAK logs, no other type'll do.  Once he had them all, he'd carry them, not to a workshop, but a randomly or semi-randomly decided spot somewhere in the cavern layers we are getting next release (the underground is where a dwarf's true strength and wisdom lies).  He'd spend some time moving around the area and viewing him would say, "This dwarf is muttering in a forgotten language!".  Then he'd finish his spell, some effect would occur.

It isn't as potent or game changing as, "Foolish goblins, taste my lightnin' boltz!1!", but with the right effects it wouldn't exactly be useless either.  Although certainly some potential for havoc exists in these following magic effects, it would neither be as bad as wizards teleporting dwarves everywhere or turning folk into toads and generally being a nuisance as the original post suggested.  More importantly, I think that this idea would add a good flavor all its own to the flavorful land of magma traps and drunkards we already have here in Dwarf Fortress.

Here are some examples I'm just making up as I go along of some magic effects of the sort I would like to be triggered by a successful mood.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-A vein (not a small cluster) of jewels is spawned growing from the spot.  Natural, un-mined walls of gems just pop up right then and there, very dwarf-appropriate in most cases I think.  In-game text, "The god of gems favors you with his bounty!"

-Said dwarf is made legendary (or gets X free skill points) in the profession of your choice, the game would stop and go to an embark-type screen where you get to pick what your want for him.  In-game text, "This dwarf is visited by his learned ancestor's ghost!"

-Some local map denizens are charmed over to your side and become friendly tame animals.  Would only affect the non-intelligent, and hopefully would hit the crocodiles and not the hoary marmots.  In-game text, "This dwarf has charmed fell beasts!"

-A rain of fluffy wamblers descend all around where the spell was being done.  In-game text, "This dwarf mispronounces an accent mark and ruins the cast!"

-A patch of Outside, Light, Aboveground tiles are created around the dwarf and grass, trees, and plants begin to grow.  Really more of an elven thing I guess, but why not.  In-game text, "A forest takes root deep in the depths!"

-A region square of relatively unexplored ground is made suddenly visible, revealing all that is there.  This of course having some possibility to just reveal another one in an endless procession of microcline-filled squares.  In-game text, "This dwarf has a vision of a faraway place!"

And again, this doesn't have to be the ENTIRE of the magic system here.  As the topic says this is suggestions for DWARVEN wizards, I'm plenty open to human schools of magic and elven schools and even demon schools.  But that strange moods are a great part of the game, a dwarf-only part of the game, and building on them would allow us to start bringing in real magic if we wanted to.  They already are pretty magic as it is.  And as I say, here is a place we could start.

[ed boy]

Perhaps we should first make a list of the different types of magic that could be implemented. There are many different styles of magic that exist, so we need to break them down into their general themes. This would allow us to discuss the realtive merits of each, and their feasabilities. The start of such a list is as folows (post anything I have missed):

-Chanelling the dead. If a particularly notable figure has died, such as your legendary swordsdwarf, then the wizard could channel his/her spirit in order to gain some temporary stat boost. Alternatively, if the dwarf channels the spirit of a dragon, then for a short time that dwarf might gain the ability to breathe fire. If the dwarf channels a titan, the dwarf could gain a big strength boost.
-Chanelling the living. Let's imagine that your champion hammerdwarf, defender of your fort, is injured during sparring. The wizard could form a soul link between the hammerdwarf and himself, allowing the wizard the gain great hammering skill. This would also open up new possibilities. Let's imagine that you catch a lot of goblins in your cage traps. By building a fancy restraint, you can place the goblin in the restraint and use his soul to augment your finest warriors
-Affecting minds. This allows the wizard to pit his/her willpower against other's. For example, a goblin squad is sitting outside your fort. The wizard might attempt to dominate the mind of one of the goblins, causing him to turn against the others. Alternatively, One of your soapmakers has had a tragic fall into the magma pit. His wife, a legendary weaponsmith, is now very unhappy. To avoid a fell mood, you get one of your wizards to cheer her up.
-Affecting bodies. This can be broken up into two subcategories - Hurting and Healing. Hurting is simple - try to break a goblin's legs using magic. Healing is also simple: try to fix a broken leg. Disease can be incorporated into this.
-Transporation. This can involve teleportation. A dwarf might teleport to your otherwise inaccessible artifact stash to stash the latest artifact. Alternatively, your champion macedwarf may have been knocked unconscious on the battlefield, and the wizard can teleport him to safety. This would also allow for accessing remote parts of the map. For example, your river is outside your fort. Your booze supplies have run dry, and the siegers are preventing you from getting any water. Your wizard then opens up a temporary gate to the river, allowing for access to water. This could be used offensively - the wizard could teleport a goblin 20 Z-levels straight up.
-Animation. This is bringing things to life. It can be either things that were alive or were never alive. For example, your dwarves have just lost their champion marksdwarf. The wizard starts a ritual and sacrifices a newborn child to bring the champion back to life. Alternatively, your dwarves need food. By sacrificing several rats (who give little meat), and by using some elephant bones, they can bring to life a full-grown elephant (who would give lots of meat). This can also create golems. If you have a masterwork iron statue, your wizard can embed the soul of a dozen lesser beings to bring it to life (it would act like fortress guard)
-Create Item. This is simple - it would create an item. It would require the input of items which are unrelated to the product (e.g. input three bauxite blocks to get a crystal glass block)
-Energy. The wizard attempts to manipulate energy. For example, the wizard could operate your magma pumps which are submerged in magma. Alternatively, your wizard could increase the temperature at a certain point by a certain amount, burning the enemy.
-Terraforming. Manipulating the earth. For example, the wizard could create a great chasm in the earth, or conjure a bridge that spans the chasm.
-Summoning. This differs from animation in that animation is giving life to something that already exists, whereas summoning is giving life from nothing. It could involve creating a horde of rhesus macaques to swarm and exhaust your enemies, or bringing back your dead dwarves even if their remains are lost (it would involve a much higher cost, however).
-Enchanting items. This is straightforward - the wizard would attempt to give any given item a magical property. For example, it might increase the critical boost of your giant corkscrew, or make your axe do fire damage.
-Enchanting areas. To use an example, a dwarf might enchant an area of land to make it especially fertile for planting. Alternatively, the dwarf might enchant your dining hall to make it light and avoid cave adaptation.
-Weather. Makes it rain, makes it snow, etc
-Time. Makes the growing seaon a little longer, for example.
-Self-preservation. I couldn't think of a better term for this. Basically, it gives your wizard more staying power after death. For example, the wizard, if killed, might inhabit the body of a child in the fortress. Alternatively, the king of the fort might require the wizard to cast spells so he will not die of old age.

There is also the source of magical energy to be discussed. Care must be taken with the source of magical energy so it is not too easily exploitable. There is a common problem with magic systems that wizards tend to be exponential in their power.

-Worship of others. If a dragon is worshipped by a town of goblins, he will be faster, stronger and tougher. Similarly, the goblins will be weakened by their worship whenever the dragon calls on their powers. Your wizard might set himself up as a god - if he does, then as the population grows and more people worship him, he will get more powerful
-Chanelling of power. Let us consider the dragon example further. The head priest of the goblin town converts several goblins into worshipping the dragon. As a result, the dragon allows the priest to channel some of his power, so the priest gains some of the abilities and attributes of the dragon
-Mechanical energy. This is where the power for the spell is proved by mechanical energy. A given spell might have an upkeep of 40 units of power. As long as those units of power are supplied, the spell continues.
Material wealth. If one wants to cast a simple spell, then mabye 100 dorfbucks are needed. The items used are consumed in the casting of the spell. If you want to cast a more powerful spell, it may need 2000 dorfbucks. If you want to cast a truly epic spell, then you may need to empty your entire artifact stockpile for it.
-Living souls. As described before, a soul generation plant could be set up - a goblin is captured and placed in such a plant. As long as the goblin is alive, they allow your wizard to capture spells. In order to prevent abuse, it should cause harm to the goblin, so it dies. This would not be restricted to enemies. As a punishment for breaking breaking dwarven law, your miner could be sentenced to a month in a soul harvester. Alternatively, you could manually assign dwarves with the "soul extraction" labour. This would put them into the soul harvester for a period of time, then replace them. It would give a very bad thought, though.
-Sacrificing souls. The dwarf must sacrifice souls to cast a spell. The complexity of the spell would dictate the number and quality of the souls. For example, to make it rain you might need to sacrifice a few vermin, but to raise your deceased champion might require a newborn child. Ideally, this should always cost you more souls than you could get out of it.
-Force of will. This is one that is perhaps the most well known. By exerting enough mental effort, the wizard can make things happen. For example, by standing still, concentrating and chanting magic words the wizard can conjure a fireball. Great care must be taken with this, as it essentially gives something for nothing. This could be conteracted if it has bad mental effects on the caster
-Group magic. Essentially, this is the force of will method but spread out over more people, so they experience lesser strain. This is different from the worship of others method in that is requires the participants to actively arrange themselves and canel other tasts during the casting of the spell.
-Natural forces. For example, a wizard might fuel himself from the thermal energy of a volcano. Once again, care must be taken to ensure that this is not abusable.
-Spiritual creatures. Thsi can be broken down into two sections: those that serve the wizard and those that the wizard serves. A wizard with a strong mind might dominate an imp. After dominating about 20 imps, the wizard might be able to cast a potent spell. Alternatively, the wizard might offer a greater demon something in return for power. For example, the wizard might sacrifice an eye but be able to call upon the power of the demon, to an extent. A weak wizard will only be able to dominate weak creatures, but a stronger wizard will be able to dominate stronger creatures. If the wizard dies, then the minions that they have summoned will either disappear or become hostile, which can be a problem if the wizard has a dozen powerful beasties.

[nenjin]

You know, the more I think about procedurally generated magic system, the more enticing it sounds. That is a sure escape from any one magic system losing its mystique and becoming another tired mechanic.

Perhaps then we should start thinking about magic as a large puzzle, where each interesting part needs to attach to other parts in a way that makes for an interesting finished work.

What are some of the properties you guys think a magic system should consider?

I'll just rattle off a few.

Ritual vs. No Ritual
Item centric (artifact/rune magic) vs. caster-centric (classical spellcasting.)
High predictability (fewer chaotic effects) vs. low predictability (wild magic, failure, related events)
Biome dependent vs. biome related vs. biome independent. (In one biomes define magic potentials, whereas in the other they can impact them, or can have no affect at all)
Random spell generation vs. defined spells
Reagents vs. No Reagants (could be considered ritual but can still be distinct too)

[Toastergargletop]

maybe looking at stereotypical magic user types might be the way to go.  necromancers do this, illusionists do this, druids do that.  themed magic (rituals etc.), but similar results.

[BlazingDav]

I'd almost say if we are going to allow magic to come in multiple forms yet all be related, you would need to from a series of 'scientific' rules for magic, sure I can see alot of people who would say magic should be random and not consistent, I agree on that, but I'd say the random element should come from the caster's themselves, psychology and such have greater effects that some would admit, also I recall a preferred concept of both a player and what a player fights should be capable of the same things, but I still wouldn't want my demon mage boss to a dungeon to blow itself up on the first spell it casts due to a random element inherently woven into magic, if psychological, then demon's could have steel minds so to speak and be fearsome if they could use magic, while dwarves... I love tradition.

Though as far as properties are concerned, considering spells that you cast to fight like a warrior would put on their armor and pick up their sword would also be an interesting idea, bit like turning into a werewolf, but with more variants of personality to it with their own abilities even, essentially a polymorph game wise though I guess... on that note if creature abilities were to be stored as spells why not allow some magic disciplines actually just study them and learn these abilities as spells.

Though there is training, more than one way to train should also be possible, from schools of wizardy (as in Hogwarts, not the most pleasing example maybe, but thats what I meant, but it could easily be a monastery of a magic order as well) to a master apprentice format. Some would be picked by different rates depending on how typical magic users are in their populations, but I could almost imagine dwarven systems relate to counselling dwarves effected by artifact production  also in the event of a dwarven mage maybe even a noble historian sort of guy could come in and teach (would be interesting dynamic if magic use was very rare for dwarves)

[nenjin]

The lack of even a basic idea of what form magic will take, beyond "procedural and a bit of everything else" is quite frustrating when trying to generate ideas.

[Thorik]

I'd rather have more realism than dwarven wizards, which sounds pretty farfetched to me, as dwarves (I thought) were to fear magic or be suspicious of it, more than any other race, for it's association with elves...

[BlazingDav]

If dwarves did fear magic it would be an interesting rp thing to create randomly occuring storylines as a dwarven mage is born and has to be smuggled out the fort by its mother where the dwarf ends up who knows where. Though given that the elves would probably be magical by comparison and dwarves trading with elves till they mandate one too far being enjoyable it might make more sense that they don't hate magic by default, but I think civ moral views are supposed to vary in future arent they?

Also I guess the start of magic is like saying 'Magic is the control of energy, whatever, wherever it be to accompolish work beyond mortal capability or means, according to the will of the caster', which essentially every spell ever could follow.

[Dvergar]

I'd rather have more realism than dwarven wizards, which sounds pretty farfetched to me, as dwarves (I thought) were to fear magic or be suspicious of it, more than any other race, for it's association with elves...

Woah, hold on a second.  It depends where your referencing.  Most pre-tolkien lore has dwarves being magical creatures.  Even The Hobbit includes the ancient myth that all non-human creatures will turn invisible when humans come along.  Funny that this ability never comes into play, I believe Tolkien even mentions the origins of the human sport of golf.  The Hobbit was admittedly more like the works of C.S. Lewis than Tolkien's epics.