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Author Topic: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899  (Read 6969 times)

sneakey pete

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2010, 09:20:35 am »

I must say, as someone outside of the US i find your primary election thingo most confusing and strange. Here, the party chooses a leader in a single vote. (admittedly, that's for a prime minister, not president) simple as that. None of this month long, money costing thing, just a simple 15 minute vote.

It seems that there's a bit of a lose/lose situation going on with donations to campains:
If they don't work, then why would capping them hurt?
If they do work, then why is it fair that the party that happens to have the supporters with the highest income is more advantaged? Isn't an election about determining who has the most support by people going out there and voting, not by determining who has the richest supporters?
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winner

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2010, 12:29:09 pm »

I see this as bad because power creates power, and the more power it has the faster it's allowed to grow.
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DJ

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2010, 12:41:30 pm »

Over here you need a certain number of signatures to even run in elections. Isn't it the same in USA? Anyway, if you can actually run in elections, you're real enough.

Oh, and I really don't see why primaries would be any concern of the state. It's party's private business.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 01:48:03 pm by DJ »
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Neonivek

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2010, 01:44:42 pm »

When I gave thoe examples it was more of an example then an arguement.
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Aqizzar

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2010, 02:12:51 pm »

Fair enough, but they're still not good examples.

Over here you need a certain number of signatures to even run in elections? Isn't it the same in USA? Anyway, if you can actually run in elections, you're real enough.

Yes, but that's not exactly a great metric.  In most states, you need to get about 10000 signatures; in small states like Rhode Island all you have to do is file within a certain time period.  That's to get on each state ballot mind you, because federal elections are still state functions.  So do you give money to each candidate in each state?  Then you could get an election like 1860, where you have a President that large parts of the country didn't even see on the ballot.  Specifically, you'd see presidential candidates spending their limited campaign cash only in the populous states, and the rest of the country left out in the cold.  It could still work for congressional candidates I guess.

There's also the important knee-jerk response.  Do you have any idea how much money it costs to put all those ads on TV?  Even if the government were dolling out specific amounts to the "real" candidates and advertisers had to offer flat rates regardless of affiliation (as they already have to do, it's worth mentioning), it would still require millions of dollars if you expect an entire field of signature gatherers to even get their names out to people.  It could possibly work if the entire campaign process, from advertising to spending and so forth, was an equitably regulated government function, but otherwise it's hard to say how any number of candidates could ever run under such a system, let alone fairly.

However, that brings up the real political reason America will never have government funded elections.  There's not a person in America who isn't disgusted with the amount of money spent on election campaigns as is, and the only reason it's palatable is that there's really no one to blame but the voters themselves, since it's all donated money being spent.  Ergo, yeah it's ridiculous, but if you don't like the guy it's no skin off your back.  Would equal funding of campaigns be even a drop in the bucket compared to the national budget?  No, but that's not the point.  Forget socialism or unregulated spending or whatever.  Just telling people that their tax dollars will now be used to advertise candidates they hate will make the country literally burst into flame.  Myself included, if only because I can see what an easy avenue it would be to exclusionary corruption of handpicking who will have the money to campaign.

I must say, as someone outside of the US i find your primary election thingo most confusing and strange. Here, the party chooses a leader in a single vote. (admittedly, that's for a prime minister, not president) simple as that. None of this month long, money costing thing, just a simple 15 minute vote.

The primary/caucus system, as limited as it is, provides some semblance of determining who gets to run for offices by actual popular vote, instead just being appointed by the parties' internal leadership.  That's how America used to do things, and it got more or less outlawed in many states, hence the primaries.  There's politically practical reasons for this, namely by letting voters, specifically the most dedicated voters, elect the candidates you're likely to have a stronger turn-out in the general election because your party's supporters actually care about who their voting for, instead of it just being some flunky who knows how to work the partyhall.

There was a lot of noise made in the 2008 presidential primaries, about the weird and arcane processes the two main parties used to select their national candidates (much of which is likely to be changed by 2012), and that if it were left up to chairmanships instead of voting, the election would have been Hillary Clinton versus Mitt Romney instead.  Whether that's true or you think it would be good or ill, it would definitely make for a very different electoral atmosphere.

If they do work, then why is it fair that the party that happens to have the supporters with the highest income is more advantaged? Isn't an election about determining who has the most support by people going out there and voting, not by determining who has the richest supporters?

Just keep reading until it sinks in.  Yes, elections are about people voting, but you need lots of ad money to get more people to vote for you.  Statistically speaking, to he with the greater campaign treasury goes the election.


Now then, I'd like to point out a little phenomenon that proves I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and that's not even really a conspiracy.  When people talk about corporate campaign cash, it's often presented as the big evil business barging into fresh-faced Congressman Smith's office and cramming money down his throat until he votes like they want.  Or at least, that the idealist you elected only gets burned out after years of struggling for relevancy.  Turns out, no.  It's a great inductive causality that a representative democracy is essentially government by egomaniacs, because you have to full of yourself to think you're the best qualified person in your district/state/country to hold the office in the first place.

Among the many responses, the Citizens United vs. FEC decision elicited an open letter to Congress, using very pointed and forceful language to decry the amount of time and effort spent drumming up campaign donations.  It wasn't sent by any voter's circuit or political rally, it was sent by the directors of over forty corporations, from Hugh Hefner to Ben & Jerry themselves.  Their message-

"Dammit, we're not giving you any more money.  Now go back to work you bums."

Yes, whatever convinced the Supreme Court in its decision, there was no small number of congressmen hoping for this outcome.  On the one hand, it's depressing because now you can bet that any meaningful new campaign finance legislation is likely already dead.  On the other hand, it's finally reach the point that a significant number of large American businesses are themselves fed up with incessant demands by representatives to be wined and dined for their votes.  Puts things in a very interesting perspective.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 02:14:44 pm by Aqizzar »
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DJ

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2010, 05:02:53 pm »

I thought federal elections are handled on the federal level. Looks like it's a bit more convoluted.

Anyway, since government funded campaigns are obviously not a realistic option, how about taking a page from sports and setting a campaign funds cap? Sure, the poorer candidates will still be disadvantaged since they might not be able to reach the cap, but it would still make the playing field a bit evener.
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sneakey pete

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2010, 06:49:57 pm »

Ack, forget it. Its no use me trying to apply my Australian/British type ideals to your system. Good luck fixing it, in my opinion you really need to...
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Neonivek

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2010, 07:17:07 pm »

Ack, forget it. Its no use me trying to apply my Australian/British type ideals to your system. Good luck fixing it, in my opinion you really need to...

It would be very tough

A lot of people make the mistake of equivocating the English speaking nations (actually just: Canada, Britian, and the USA) when they can be dramatically different.
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Aqizzar

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2010, 07:24:55 pm »

I'd love to here what's magically different about the other Angloid nations that makes you guys want to dance around singing their praises.  Please, I'm serious.  What is it about this Australian/British politics that you want to see elsewhere?  As many times as I hear people calling American politics total crap, I've never heard an actual explanation of what's so great about anywhere else.

The very fact that I started this thread should tell you that I'm not some chest-thumping super patriot.  I swear allegiance to rational argument, first and foremost with details.
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Neonivek

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2010, 07:27:00 pm »

Not magically different... but a lot of people forget there IS a difference.

I've really had it up to here with people who say they are exactly the same. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE DANG IT!

Also Aquazzar who ever said that politics where I am isn't crud? I don't think I ever stood up and said "Ohh my goodness, the Canadian system is amazing!".

As for details, I tailor what I say towards people who understand the jist what I am saying. I usually don't format it for people who do not because that would take a lot of time I do not have.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 07:29:58 pm by Neonivek »
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Aqizzar

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2010, 07:31:02 pm »

Of course there is.  Please start describing it.  Specifically, whatever the difference is that makes you think those governments function in a way you find preferable to the American one.  I know they have Parliaments and so forth, but I don't live there, nor have I studied them.
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Leafsnail

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2010, 07:43:04 pm »

Of course there is.  Please start describing it.  Specifically, whatever the difference is that makes you think those governments function in a way you find preferable to the American one.  I know they have Parliaments and so forth, but I don't live there, nor have I studied them.
Our political system is abysmal.  I'll attempt to explain it, even though I'm not entirely sure of the details.

A Member of Parliament is elected from each "constituency" in the country (this is different to the Electoral Colleges, I believe).  All of the MPs then sit in the House of Commons, and the party with an overall majority forms a government (in the event of a hung parliament we... uh... panic).  That means the leader of their party becomes prime minister (note that he isn't directly elected, and can be changed without a reelection) and gets to form his "cabinet" and reshuffle them at any time (again, the cabinet are not directly elected in any way).  The Queen has to approve a new government, although she's not exactly going to reject any.

In order to pass bills, a variety of random political nonsense has to be gone through before a public vote is held in the House of Commons.  If this is passed with a majority (pro-tip - due to the First Past the Post system, the government wins 99% of the time) it moves to the House of Lords.

The House of Lords is a hideous abomination.  You get in in any of the following ways -

- Arbitrarily appointed by a member of the Royal Family (rare)
- Arbitrarily appointed by the Prime Minister (common - it's their way of getting power there, after all)
- Inherited from your parents (seriously... although some of these have been removed)
- Be a bishop in one of 14 churches in the country (so much for seperation...)
- Be elected (rare)

So the bill needs to be passed through this mess as well.  Note that the cabinet can be formed out of lords as well as MPs, so it's theoretically possible to have a government entirely made up of unelected Lords (although, in practise, only a few members of the cabinet are Lords, such as Lord Mandelson and Lady Scotland.  The last time we had a Lord as a Prime Minister was Lord Asquith, I think, but don't quote me on that).

In other words, it's a horrible mess that wastes huge amounts of time and hands whoever has slightly more votes than the other (an overall majority in the electorate isn't required as long as you get, say, 40% of the votes in 51% of the constituencies) the power to do anything it likes.
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Neonivek

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2010, 07:44:16 pm »

whatever the difference is that makes you think those governments function in a way you find preferable to the American one.

I claim no supperiority towards either system.
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sneakey pete

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2010, 07:47:53 pm »

I'd love to here what's magically different about the other Angloid nations that makes you guys want to dance around singing their praises.  Please, I'm serious.  What is it about this Australian/British politics that you want to see elsewhere?  As many times as I hear people calling American politics total crap, I've never heard an actual explanation of what's so great about anywhere else.

The very fact that I started this thread should tell you that I'm not some chest-thumping super patriot.  I swear allegiance to rational argument, first and foremost with details.

I'm not actually telling you to adopt the system we have, the comment i made was more saying i couldn't understand your system properly, not that you couldn't understand the australian/british system.

Our system isn't perfect, hell it needs a lot done to it, but the one thing that strikes me about it is that there's no fuss. Yes, our election campains have started to ballon out into 9 month long affairs, however, there's none of the primaries voting, and it never gets as... "emotionally charged" as elections in the US seem to. But again, this is coming from a non american, it can be hard for me to understand the american viewpoint sometimes.

edit: worth pointing out that in australia we don't have that house of lords system.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 07:50:00 pm by sneakey pete »
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Leafsnail

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court - Party Like It's 1899
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2010, 07:53:35 pm »

Quote
edit: worth pointing out that in australia we don't have that house of lords system.
Do you think any country has it by choice?
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