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Author Topic: Next Elder Scrolls  (Read 8339 times)

Hawkfrost

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2012, 12:19:37 am »

Ah, I was in a public place at the time. Thank you for jumping to that assumption. Still, video is worth more than words when assessing how the game will feel when playing it.

To be fair to Jesse he does state Zenimax is NDA'ing him in regards to showing any video and any pictures they did not authorize, so I assume he had a rather limited amount of material to work with.

Now watch as they drastically change it before release and he goes off on a rant about how they fucked it all up.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2012, 12:59:37 am »

From what he said, it certainly sounds more like something I might like playing rather than, say, LOTRO, which I quit in disgust within the first two hours because I could neither block, dodge, or control when I attacked, and the only control I had over combat was pressing buttons to use special abilities.

That said, I'm iffy about having a limited number of mappable powers - DC Universe Online uses a similar model as far as having control of your weapon(s) as well as powers, and only being able to map a very limited number of powers (similar, 5 or so, I'm not sure - I don't think I have it installed). Personally, it felt too limited, as I always felt like I needed to be able to map one or two more powers. DCUO is okay, but that is one of the problems I have with it (the others being massive HD space usage, and the ludicrously low money cap before your money starts going into an 'escrow' account that you can't access without paying real money).

Star Trek Online lets you map dozens and set them all to keys (they have a default keymapping but you can change it), and also gives you control of your weapons, and that felt more effective, although I had to remap EVERYTHING, personally, as I felt it was too inefficient. I turned the entire left side of the keyboard into a map for all the ability map slots (half of them just by pressing the key, the other half by holding a modifier key, e.g. shift or whatever). I remapped running forward/back and sideways to buttons on my mouse (mainly for combat mode, where mouse aiming was on), since that's normally w/s/a/d and my objective was to be able to do combat with two hands without moving them across the keyboard or off the mouse.
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bombzero

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2012, 01:23:46 am »

I'm not sure it particularly matters to me, Bethesda has fallen far as a game company over the years. Lately it literally seems like their business tactic is making everything mind-numbingly simple, shorter in gameplay hours, and more bleak in aesthetic.

Also, they fucked up terribly on dragons and just about every other enemy type in Skyrim, they gave New Vegas to the murderer of good series itself, And I find it quite laughable that they would even consider making another game after these recent damn embarrassments to the genre of "rpg"
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Hugehead

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2012, 01:26:36 am »

I'm not sure it particularly matters to me, Bethesda has fallen far as a game company over the years. Lately it literally seems like their business tactic is making everything mind-numbingly simple, shorter in gameplay hours, and more bleak in aesthetic.

Also, they  @#!*%  up terribly on dragons and just about every other enemy type in Skyrim, they gave New Vegas to the murderer of good series itself, And I find it quite laughable that they would even consider making another game after these recent  @#!*%  embarrassments to the genre of "rpg"
Bethesda didn't make New Vegas, and Zenimax are making this game. ???
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2012, 01:44:39 am »

I prefer a small number of key binds. Simply put, pressing shift-G to cast Fireball isn't as cool to me as drawing the Fireball spell symbol in the air with your cursor or putting bat guano and sulfur from your inventory into your spellcasting hand and hitting a "cast" button. The symbol-drawing is a cute mini-game that makes you feel kinda how hard it is to make those mystical passes correctly every time. The material-component is a neat little puzzle that allows you to experiment and discover new spells with cool reagents you find. Both also slow down the spellcasting and require concentration from the player, two things that help put you in the shoes of your wizard.

Of course, the first thing anyone will do is (1) go to the wiki and find all the info, and (2) download the macro program some guy wrote so you can just press shift-G to cast Fireball. People do this because they don't want to learn the system, or the wiki and macro are easier, or to compete better against other players.

I think making the game more gamey and abstract pulls you out of the game and makes you realize you're just fumbling around on your keyboard. If it's a flight sim then a lot of keyboard-work is a lot of fun and it feels like you're doing your little pre-flight checklist or whatever. But RPGs are supposed to be visceral and intimate, organic and (illogically) analog.

Which is why I like FPS style RPGs where you have to aim and hold back your axe and swing it where you want it to go. You have to draw back the bow and figure out the arc and lead your target on your own. If your player skill or luck results in you getting a hit on a vital area, or bypassing armor because you hit him in the visor-slit, that's a lot cooler than clicking the target and waiting for the attack animation, the computer generating a result of 96% which is a crit doing double damage.

I'm even on board with melee combos, especially resulting from weight distribution from leaning and rocking, timing your swing properly to get a quick second hit, or a bounce off an effective block, or a redirect from an effective deflection. I'm NOT a fan of fighting-game-style attack combos resulting in funky special moves that have nothing to do with the individual components. I want to be able to swing high, getting the enemy to raise his shield, then lunge in to stomp his kneecap and pop him on the crown with my pommel when he drops to his knee.

I think that's possible with WASD, doubletap and hold forward to sprint, doubletap to juke/roll any direction, QE leans, mouselook and attack mousebutton R/L, hold R + mousebutton to throw. I think that involves a lot of player skill but it's intuitive and can be learned by the player through swinging his sword at a post or sparring with friends. If it were me, I would have no hotbar whatsoever.

Equipping items from inventory should take some time, so it's understandable that you actually have to go into your inventory screen and change things out. You want to grab a potion from inside a pouch (among all your potions), uncork it, and drink all by pressing a button? How about going into inventory, equipping potion in hand, and looking up so the potion drains into your mouth. The same mechanic would work for throwing dangerous potions like acid, poison, smokebomb, etc. except you probably don't want to try to drink those. Again, it makes sense in the game instead of putting the item on your hotbar and clicking the related key. I mean, who carries around a hotbar? What exactly is a hotbar? It's sure not a belt, since you put any dang thing on it including spells.

I know people are going to just say "that sounds stupid and I would never play a game like that, it's a good thing you don't make video games" but I think a lot of it is just that we're so used to the convenience of hotbars and macros that a game without them seems too clunky.

BTW I hate the idea of a mini-map too. If you wanna find someplace, ask a local (like in Daggerfall) or get up high to get a better view. Again, does every scruffy murderhobo in the entire world have a magical psychic supermap tattooed on the inside of his eyelids?

Gripe3: How is it that any murderhobo can pick up a nondescript +1 sword from a corpse and instantly know exactly what it does? It's like a gruesome Antiques Roadshow. How about requiring some kind of appraisal skill or else bring it to someone in town to identify?

Gripe4: Loot. A person's items should exist on his person. If you keep your wand in a pocket someone should be able to pickpocket it. Likewise when you die, someone should have to strip off your armor rather than "opening your corpse" and "picking up the armor from inside your body". Also monsters who don't have money shouldn't give money (like in Morrowind).

Again, it's all just crap we deal with in every game so why complain about it and it's fine the way it is and it's never gonna change and you have bad ideas Leo etc etc.
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Hawkfrost

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2012, 02:09:53 am »

It's not that they are bad ideas, it's just that they are complicated and need to be pulled off exactly right.
Unfortunately the people who want really in-depth RPGs aren't in big enough numbers to offset the cost of making them, since a lot of folk don't have the time/energy/patience to learn something really complex nowadays.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2012, 05:21:38 am »

Stuff

I mostly agree with what you say. I like interactivity. The more there is to do, and the more intricate it is, the more it interests me.

But...

Gripe3: How is it that any murderhobo can pick up a nondescript +1 sword from a corpse and instantly know exactly what it does? It's like a gruesome Antiques Roadshow. How about requiring some kind of appraisal skill or else bring it to someone in town to identify?

I completely disagree with this, and is one of the things I don't like about NWN and similar D&D games. Anyone with absolutely no experience could pick up a sword and start to use it (although not very well), or at the very least hold it in their hands. What I never liked was this magical force in games stopping you from holding the weapon. That is: I know what a sword is, and very roughly how to use one, let me use it.

Gripe4: Loot. A person's items should exist on his person. If you keep your wand in a pocket someone should be able to pickpocket it. Likewise when you die, someone should have to strip off your armor rather than "opening your corpse" and "picking up the armor from inside your body". Also monsters who don't have money shouldn't give money (like in Morrowind).

How would you go about removing their armor? By clicking and dragging? That would probably turn out more awkward, since doing such an activity in RL would be relatively easy, whereas in a game it could be quite a fight with the controls. Not to forget the potential fetish fuel. Plus it raises the question of how a person's inventory actually works in such an enviroment. If you killed a person with 15 potions of whatever, were on earth are they stored? I completely agree with you with money though. Did this creature swallow coins or something?



Ultimately, there are 2 issues though. The first is implementation. Many of the things you suggest, while good on paper, would be very hard to implement in code. Plus to reasonably balance it out and ensure it is reasonably bug free is another daunting task.

The second is related to how people use these things. To alot of people, all these game mechanics are mere tools. They exist only to enable the player to "achieve" the next level, "earn" the next piece of equiptment etc. You cast fireball to kill the target to edge slightly closer to the next level/money etc, rather then because it is interesting in itself. I have observed that in a general multiplayer enviroment, people generally work out ways to use the provided tools in the most "efficient" possible form, even if that means glitching/using-as-unintended etc.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

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Virex

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2012, 06:13:22 am »

Did this creature swallow coins or something?


Not unlikely for some kinds of animals. Sharks are known to swallow coals, cans and even Brussels sprouts on rare occasions. I could very well see a hungry beast of sufficient size swallow a person's purse. Of course, a mudcrab with coins is just silly...
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ISP

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2012, 07:08:58 am »



"What you never seen a mubcrab merchant before?"
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2012, 04:41:17 pm »

Ah, I was in a public place at the time. Thank you for jumping to that assumption. Still, video is worth more than words when assessing how the game will feel when playing it.

Well, if that was the case, then maybe you should have stated that instead of just blurting it something out like you were bashing the video because it had no gameplay footage.

Edit:
I'm not sure it particularly matters to me, Bethesda has fallen far as a game company over the years. Lately it literally seems like their business tactic is making everything mind-numbingly simple, shorter in gameplay hours, and more bleak in aesthetic.

Also, they fucked up terribly on dragons and just about every other enemy type in Skyrim, they gave New Vegas to the murderer of good series itself, And I find it quite laughable that they would even consider making another game after these recent damn embarrassments to the genre of "rpg"

I'm pretty sure you're talking about of your ass here. The only game that they have released that applies to any of your points is Skyrim, and even then I would certainly not call that Short or particularly bleak.

And also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Murders of Good Series" when you talk about Obsidian (At least that's who I'm assuming your referring to). Last time I checked, The only two really bad games they seem to have made were Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege III, and only one of those was actually an established Franchise.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 04:58:24 pm by Johnfalcon99977 »
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ISP

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2012, 05:29:40 pm »

I wonder if anyone is ever happy with the first lease of a game, or if there ever has been a game noone complained about.
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Teneb

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2012, 05:34:06 pm »

I wonder if anyone is ever happy with the first lease of a game, or if there ever has been a game noone complained about.

From what I heard, when Morrowind first released it got a lot of complaints. On the same level of Skyrim, probably. Yet now it is regarded as the best (or one of the best, depending on whom you ask) TES game ever made. So one shouldn't take the complains seriously until you had a chance to see the game for yourself.

And for those complaining: ESO is being made by ZeniMax Online Studios. Not Bethesda. Not that it'll stop some for bashing on them for a game they haven't made.
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ISP

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2012, 06:02:20 pm »

I did see some thing about online mods for skyrim but I didnt pay them any attention, mostly butcause the one I looked at require you to have certain mods and nothing else.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2012, 08:31:03 pm »

Ah, I was in a public place at the time. Thank you for jumping to that assumption. Still, video is worth more than words when assessing how the game will feel when playing it.

Well, if that was the case, then maybe you should have stated that instead of just blurting it something out like you were bashing the video because it had no gameplay footage.

I wouldn't quite call calling the video uninformative "bashing" it.

If I remember correctly, a of of people (Including me) are of the opinion that something like skyrim with just multiplayer for a few friends would be great, but an MMO... nah.

This is what I would have wanted. An mmo brings along the urge for people to optimise their returns on time investment by maximising efficient use of the provided tools. Ugh.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

ISP

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Re: Next Elder Scrolls
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2012, 09:00:54 pm »

I really think elderscrolls should at least dip its feet into optional multiplayer before it dives into mmo, its like asking itself if it knows how to swim before jumping off the highdive.
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