Hey everyone. I've seen a lot of talk about social skills recently and how they're sooo great for levelling. Coincidentally, I'd been running an experiment to determine the best way to level a dwarf. The test is spoilered below, since I made some mistakes and I'm not fully satisfied with the results, and it's a weird mix of jotted notes and half-hearted RP. I did learn some things though:
1) Wrestling is by far the fastest way to *start* a dwarf levelling, about 450 XP per day
2) Wrestling becomes *extremely* slow once the participants are high-level wrestlers, as they no longer hit each other often.
3) Record keeping seems fairly steady at around 250 XP day, as long as records need keeping.
4) Two dwarves locked in isolation will gain social XP at exactly the same rate, distributed randomly to different social skills.
5) High-level social dwarves gain about 82 XP per day, better than a legendary miner but much worse than record keepers and novice wrestlers. Easier to grind though.
I'll be running a second, better, test soon. I'll be taking notes more frequently, including attributes which may affect the gain rate, and I'll be putting the results in a spreadsheet. Any XP-related theories you'd like me to include in the test, please post them here. Right now my tests are:
2) Training a single wrestler (bearing shield and armor) against a constant stream of fresh recruits
Most experienced dwarf in the world:
1) Have to determine the fastest (reliable) experience source. Is it talking, sparring, or producing?
Talking: Lock the dwarves in a 2X2 room, throw food and drinks in from top (or have a well throw food, see if there's difference).
Sparring: Equip the two dwarves with leather armor and a wooden/light shield and have them wrestle. Sparring injuries are probably a matter of time, so be ready to savescum. Shouldn't need to be locked up, they don't go on break. Just bring favorite food and favorite drink to a stockpile adjacent to the barracks.
Manufacturing: The toughest to test. Depends heavily on haulers to keep raw materials in supply, and remove the finished goods. Complex setup of workshop, input stockpile, output stockpile, food stockpile, drink stockpile, and bed. Place bed on an isolated z-level so one can automate draft-undrafting the dwarf off break.
*** Woodcrafting/carpentry: Multiple embark tiles would be necessary, or tower-cap farms. See Martin's posts.
X Stonecrafting/masonry: Simple, just avoid aquifers. But guaranteed to be no faster than wood-work, since the materials are heavier.
X Leatherworking/bonecarving (both?): Hard to automate the butchery, and super hard to produce animals quickly. Almost certainly gives same 30 experience, no benefit.
Current theory: "King under the mountain": subject is locked in 2X2 room with a consort. He has an office and is the Record Keeper. Rest of fort mines out the world to keep him busy. Eventually, they dump the rock in a magma pool. When he's not record keeping he's talking, this keeps him happy as well.
- 1/16/2009 -
Record Keeper X Sounds like even heavy rock-generation isn't going to keep a record-keeper busy, particularly not for a lifetime.
Manufacturing X
Pump Operator _ Promising, easy to test. Won't take long to hit legendary, then exhaustion is rare (or non existent?)
Sparring _ Very promising, Martin's experience suggests this will be best. Shield + armor + wrestle at once. Injuries rare.
Chatting _ Easiest to test (at least with robodwarves). Bonus: they'll stay super happy. Test chatting through wall, for fun.
Dig-Engraving _ Very dwarfy, and could last a long time with enough embark space... Needs testing
- Test begun -
Paused as soon as I could, but the two least social dwarves already managed to say hello.
In what I assume was a single step, they got the following social experience:
Trait Treadmiller Excavator
Consoler 1 1
Comedian 1
Persuader 2 3
Negotiator 2 2
Imtimidator 2
Judge of Intent 2
Pacifier 1
Conversationalist 3
Total 10 10
10 each. Coincidence? Early hypothesis: 10 XP per talk, awarded randomly to eligible skills. If true, this means we don't have to find a dishonest dwarf to maximize social experience.
By 3rd Slate everyone was in position. On 4th Slate I moved the socialites from the talk-through-walls area to the 1x2 room, since they were making no progress. The treadmiller got a neglible head start. Forgot to make the excavator a miner at first, too. But on 4th Slate everyone was training hard.
8th Slate: Struck microcline. Crap. Usually I love microcline, but this is going to be a problem.
17th Slate: Status report time. Some surprising results.
Excavator: 860 mining XP. As expected, starts out slow. That's 86 stone he chewed through, not soil.
Treadmiller: 580 pump XP. Lazy bugger keeps collapsing from exhastion. Seriously, I don't envy his job.
Socialites:
Alath: 75+80+73+77+81+71+89+68+101=715
Kib: 89+73+77+74+83+87+76+78+78 =715!!!
So, they're definitely gaining at the same rate. Is it because they're at the same skill levels (dabbling in everything they do)? Also, seems likely that they gain 5 XP per talk, not 10, but based on the embark they talk *fast*.
Still, the surprising thing to me is that they have gained XP slower than the unskilled miner. Not only that, but the Excavator and Treadmiller will gain XP much faster as legendaries. Is there a social skill that increases the rate of social XP gain? I'll leave them talking to find out, but I doubt it. Hardly matters, because...
Pugilists:
Tulon: 6489
Mistem: 6953
Wow. WOW. I was expecting wrestling to possibly be 2-3 times faster than the other skills. Instead it's about 8X faster than unskilled mining. Still, legendary mining is so much faster than unskilled mining, that mining may win in the long run, if legendary mining is faster than wrestling. Remember that we're in this for the *long* haul, so we don't really care what the gain rates are at low levels.
Bonus: The pugilists are exstatic, while all other dwarves (even the socialites) are around content.
Strange, Tulon is friends with the Treadmiller, the Excavator, and a Socialite. Not her sparring partner. Even stranger given that...
The Pugilists are talking to each other! They have gained social stats roughly half as fast as the Socialites.
Tulon: 47+41+37+36+38+30+36+39+31=335
Mistem: 58+64+49+46+49+64=330
And the punchline is, I forgot to equip them with shields and armor. Which will almost certainly provide additional experience.
Conclusion: Wrestling is by far the fastest way to train unskilled dwarves, and it keeps them happy at the same time, *possibly without them making friends*. Needs more research!
Will mining take the lead at high levels? I remain hopeful. Might as well leave the Treadmiller going as well, but really it's mining vs. wrestling now.
19 Slate: STRUCK MICROCLINE YAY WOOHOOOO
24 Slate: Mistem is now an elite wrestler, and need not work. Tulon is 1048 XP behind him... interesting. Based on Martin's work, the experience is probably gained from succesful hits. When I rerun the test, I better have a control group of unarmored wrestlers to compare against the armored wrestlers. If wrestling wins the contest, the Chosen dwarf should be the only one armored, and wrestle against hordes of newbies. If only the Chosen's sparring partners could be crippled first... but then they wouldn't spar. Maybe I can convince the Chosen to choke a harmless zombie somehow?
5 Felsite: MIIIIIIIIIICA ok I'm done. Tulon also made elite wrestler days ago.
6 Felsite: All hail Mistem "Munchkin" Ishendeler, the legendarily cheesy champion.
8 Felsite: Now Tulon is also, like, legendary. I guess.
The two pugilists have continued to talk, but very slowly. They average about 60 per social skill, as opposed to 250ish for the socialites. They don't spar 100% of the time, and must be chatting as they catch their breath. In fact, if getting tired is what makes them break off, that explains why they seem to be talking less now. They are both "Extremely Tough" and "Strong", so they need less breaks.
Also interesting is that despite living in a stereotypical romantic comedy (or romantic horror?) situation, they are still Long-term Aquaintances. Possibly because Mistem is reserved and unassertive.
10 Felsite: Udib the Excavator reached 2000 XP, all mining, and gained his first attribute: tough. Probably won't help at all, since moving mountains doesn't make dwarves tired. Let's hope he gets agility soon.
Mistem is still in the lead with exactly 20500 wrestling XP, plus roughly 1000 social XP. Wrestling so far 10X better than mining... but wait till Udib gets some agility and levels.
14 Felsite: Both Mistem and Tulon are wearing dresses. His is giant toad leather. Maybe Tulon will make friends when she realizes Mistem's male. Unfortunately giant toad leather dresses don't grant armor-bearing skill. Hey, did she just throw her shoe at him?
19 Felsite: Poor Lorbam the Treadmiller, the hardest working dorf in the fort, is now a "Pump Operator". Good job, Lorbam, you'll be legendary in no time! Like Mistem, who is Legendary +3.
23 Felsite: It's my birthday! To celebrate I have Stukos the Dwarven Scientist, my alter ego, make himself an office. He doesn't admire it because he's a crappy mason and it's made of sch*st. He does admire a no-quality door he made, out of legendary boredom.
1 Hematite: Stukos the Scientist, locked in the tiny hallway, decides to start tallying the Excavator's debris. Maybe he counts the blows of the pick echoing from underground. Or maybe he's about to become a legendary nutcase.
Tulon lost her dress. Uninhibited by such restraining clothing, she catupulted up to 30041 wrestling XP to Mistem's 29414. Maybe he was distracted. He still says they're "Just Long-term Aquaintances".
5 Hematite: Struck golden beryl. Tulon's gained 899 wrestling experience, Stukos has 1059 record keeping. Distressing... the Pugilists are gaining 31000/(25+28+5)= about 525 experience per day on average, but only about 200 per day so far this month. That implies that something is slowing them down sometimes, and it might be possible to press them harder with micromanagement.
Or, maybe, the wrestlers are gaining exp slower now that they're so good at dodging each other! If so, mining and record-keeping are definitely in the lead.
There's also a chance record-keeping could be the fastest XP source, without any way to produce enough record keeping work... unless maybe mass-mining several embark tiles will do it, or a *MASSIVE* glass-making operation.
20 Hematite: 5038 recording experience for Stukos. That's about 250 per day. Mistem has only gained 349 wrestling experience this month so far (350/20 = 17.5 per day).
I should have been tallying Udib the Excavator's progress since 1 Hematite. I can look it up later, but for now he has 3840 total. That's only 66 per day for the 58 days, but he started *very* slowly. I'll check again on 1 Malachite and divide it by 8.
23 Hematite: Oh wow, I hadn't noticed, but Udib is taking breaks at the wagon. The Treadmiller must be doing the same in his room (or can I prevent breaks by removing all break areas? I did think about breaks when I started this project, and have some ideas for automatically cancelling them if necessary. I'll have Udib destroy the wagon and keep an eye on the Treadmiller. The socialites probably keep talking on break, but I'll check.
1 Malachite: Wagon's finally deconstructed, and it's the beginning of the month, so noting down exp values. Will compare again in one month. It's been 81 days since things started, but changing circumstances have me wanting a count for Malachite, just Malachite.
Udib the Excavator: 3980 Mining XP
Lorbam the Treadmiller: 2121 Pump XP
Tulon the Pugilist: 30983
29918 wrestling,
125+121+118+112+122+114+103+130+120=1065 social
Mistem the Pugilist: 31877 (393 per day, but dropping fast)
30817 wrestling,
180+175+181+207+160+157=1060 social (still 5 under Tulon)
Alath the Socialite: 6050
647+670+687+717+670+695+664+672+628=6050
Kib the Socialite: 6050 (of course)
655+666+697+669+713+666+625+689+670=6050
(and is apparently satan)
Stukos the Dwrvn Scntst 7233 (in only 28 days) 258/day
1 Galena: Watched Udib the Excavator, and he took no breaks since I deconstructed the wagon! Haha, could it really be that easy?
Stukos isn't done updating records, which is good, but he's close. Even with Udib mining nonstop, Stukos is 58% to the highest precision.
Udib the Excavator: 5890-3980 = 1910
Lorbam the Treadmiller: 2914-2121 = 793
Tulon the Pugilist: 32548-30983 = 1565
30983+176+174+172+171+181+168+158+187+178=32548
Mistem the Pugilist: 33904-31877 = 2027
32344+276+254+261+276+241+252= = 33904
Alath the Socialite: 8345-6050 = 2295
911+927+930+1001+919+940+918+932+867=8345
Kib the Socialite: 8345-6050 = 2295
906+936+955+931+975+916+867+943+916=8345 (good)
Stukos the Dwrvn Scntst 14787-7233 = 7554 (crap)
10 Sandstone: I was wrong about breaks, of course. They still happen. Guess I'll need that automated system after all, or to activate the economy.
14 Timber: A raccoon has stolen a giant Tower-cap corkscrew. *sigh* furries.
1 Granite 208: Seven years have passed since the start of the experiment. (I ran the thing overnight with autosaves, but it crashed). Everyone seems to have work to do, maybe even record keeping (Stukos is on break at the moment). There is still plenty of stone to mine, maybe about 10 years worth assuming about the same rate of excavation. Ok, enough stalling, here are the numbers.
Udib the Excavator: 33330-5890 = 27440
Lorbam the Treadmiller: 29620-2914 = 26706
Tulon the Pugilist: 131760-32548 = 99212
31155+(11276+11267+11276+11253+11237+11061+11024+11046+11165)=131760
Mistem the Pugilist: 135899-33904 = 101995
35299+(16447+17004+16878+16789+16750+16732)=135899
Alath the Socialite: 166765-8345 = 158420
18401+18416+18624+18463+18731+18567+18476+18499+18588=166765
Kib the Socialite: 166765-8345 = 158420
18412+18639+18474+18554+18606+18477+18572+18623+18408=166765
Stukos the Dwrvn Scntst 30735-14787 = 15948
So it seems the social skills have won out after all, right? The Pugilists have much more social XP than wrestling XP at this point. They're wasting their time trying to punch legendary wrestlers. The Treadmiller made a surprise comeback against the Excavator. The Dwarven Scientist ran out of rocks to count, despite Udib making new ones all the time. I'm not sure this is over just yet, though. Let me break down sources of inefficiency:
Excavator: Could be wasting a lot of time running around. He mined twisting passages, on all z-levels. Miners usually proceed to a nearby tile, but clearly not always. Still, I don't think there's any chance of him catching up to the social skills.
Treadmiller: An incredible effort, but still slightly below mining. No way to make it more efficient, either.
Record Keeping: *maybe* a massive glass production line, with the results going into magma to save fps, would provide enough work. Mining rocks won't cut it. It does seem faster than chatting, as long as there's work to do. Wild speculation: an injury that reduces his record keeping efficiency while not slowing him down. Probability: slim.
Pugilist: Needs easy-to-hit targets. Too bad children can't spar. Essentially we need to draft a single "target" at a time (does it have to be in the Pugilist's squad for them to spar?) and switch out as often as possible. We'll need a lot of migrants, and to kill them off afterwards to make room for more.
Socialite: Soooo cheesy. All I can think of is for down the road: if I can get the dwarves to be bedridden next to each other, will they chat? That way they don't waste time fetching food and drink, they'll have it brought to them. Then keep their sleep schedules in synch, maybe keep them awake with loud noises. Heheh. Also, it seems like they gain exp faster now that they're high level, so it might help to pair the Chosen child socialite up with an already-legendary socialite. Yet another advantage to Socialite: we can start with children.
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Topic: The Attributed Dwarf (Test data is in!) (Read 3854 times)