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This only gave grief

3 (6.1%)

Grakelin is not stupid

6 (12.2%)

Are you happier now?

1 (2%)

------ Haiku, the encore -----

17 (34.7%)

Disagreeing, Fine

0 (0%)

Why you make a fuzz 'bout it?

3 (6.1%)

Lets just be happy

19 (38.8%)

Total Members Voted: 48

[nenjin]

They addressed melee storm...and what we found was that direct attacks are a waste of time in versus. Even if you let the other team clear an entire section without attacking them, getting them in that all important ambush attack means you'll win the level. But yeah, the corner problem in L4D was something that they could never really address...even with anti-clipping and melee cooldown, a corner is still a corner. There were a few cases of unwinnable situations in L4D....but they seem pretty evenly distributed between survivor and infected. (For example, the hospital roof, there is no way to get through there without some pain against a pro team.)

Thats why you don't play expert or at least skip out when things hit the fan, which I admittedly fail to do, being stubborn as heck.  More often then not, you find people with no business playing it... playing it.

I stick to advanced.
And normal...  I guess I can't take it seriously in campaign, so I suck a lot more.

Advanced was still too easy. I could just never find enough committed people to make it all the way through an expert game, so I gave up on campaign entirely. And yeah, after versus....put it this way. Campaign is sugar. Versus is ****ing coke.

I haven't kept up, but didn't they finally implement team matching in the lobby? Too little too late for me...but it would help the PUG problem. PUGs are almost totally worthless in L4D as a rule.

[dragnar]

But they achieve the goal of being fun. And that's what counts.

I cannot stress this enough. A game is not good because it follows some "superior" design paradigm, but because it is FUN. NOTHING else matters. You can criticize a type of game all you like, as long as it is fun it doesn't matter one bit. The main problem is that the majority of gamers have very low standards of fun, accepting only mildly entertaining games as amazing instead of demanding something truly good.

As for valve, I am very impressed with them for pushing back portal 2's release date. A game should never be pushed out the door before it's finished, but most developers don't give those who actually make the game the authority to decide when they are done and instead release the game at some arbitrary time far before it is ready to be sold.

[Schilcote]

Counterstirke has no other gameplay then point a gun at someone and shoot. It also has a horrible community. I don't see how a Bay12er could not hate a company for creating this. Nerd cred doesn't realy cut it when the game itself has little substance...


Halflife 2 was more linear then a ruler. Also, it had an annoying sidekick and forced you to care for her when you most definitly wanted to blow her head off (only saving grace was that she could kill headcrabs) and don't get me started on the other characters I was supposed to like. The whole "aliens take over the world but are stopped by GORDON FREEMAN"-story was also one gaping plothole and they even hang a lampshade on that at the end of it. The AI was bad, most weapons were bland or done better by earlier games and the game was really restrictive in where you could move. I fail to see how an Bay12er in it's right mind could appreciate it. Oh and it also had 2 more episodes that cost as much as a full game for little more then what free DLC should have provided. 


Portal, though sometimes intersting was way short. Glados was annoying as was the endless clamouring about that strange cube thing. The game was, again, very restrictive and linear. There were at most 3 ways to solve a puzle, but usualy it boiled down to repeating the same old patterns over and over.


That only leaves TF 2 as an in my eyes decent, if pretty standard multiplayer game. It is however being dragged down by silly things such as constant changes in how to get items, hat overloads and the fact that someone who has played longer has an advantage because he has more weapons. You're lucky they're not charging you for play time yet, though that's probably not far off.


VAC's ofcourse a scam to ban unwitting people and keep the real cheaters from leaving steam in favour of a honest system. Steam itself requires you to be on-line to play your games usualy, which is also a realy bad kind of copy protection. They generaly overprice the games, which they conceal by having sales. Support's pretty bad as well and it's SLOW compared to starting the game directly. Also, if you get your account hacked or on the bad side of someone with a bit of knowledge you're fawked and you've lost all your games.


Edit:

The problem is that you're taking industry buzzwords too seriously. I put them in quotes for a reason. They don't really mean anything in terms of game quality. Everything's easy once you figure out the basics? Yes, that's true. Everything.

Ok I've got to stop, I can't hold the facade anymore.


I was just playing the devils advocate, painting the idiocy of how people here always rave on some things lik open worlds and emergent gameplay, which in no way guarantee a good game.

Umm... was the whole post a facade, or just the ending bit?

Does this mean I won? (I have a meme/macro lined up for this occasion, but I don't feel like putting forth the effort to make it work)

But they achieve the goal of being fun. And that's what counts.

I cannot stress this enough. A game is not good because it follows some "superior" design paradigm, but because it is FUN. NOTHING else matters. You can criticize a type of game all you like, as long as it is fun it doesn't matter one bit. The main problem is that the majority of gamers have very low standards of fun, accepting only mildly entertaining games as amazing instead of demanding something truly good.

As for valve, I am very impressed with them for pushing back portal 2's release date. A game should never be pushed out the door before it's finished, but most developers don't give those who actually make the game the authority to decide when they are done and instead release the game at some arbitrary time far before it is ready to be sold.

I'm Schilcote, and I approve this message.

EDIT:

I also agree with nenjin says below. Still, they probably won't make the same mistake again. Probably.

[nenjin]

Valve has that luxury with Portal 2 because they're publishing it. L4D and L4D2 both suffered from the "put it out naow" syndrome. In L4D's case, I believe it's because they wanted to move on with their deal with EA, and couldn't do it until they put L4D out. So they did. Sans two versus campaigns that should have been there from the start. ****. I still get pissed just thinking about it.

As for fun...fun is subjective. Some people find the Sims fun. Some people find Bejeweled fun. Some people find Solitaire with a lot of graphics fun. (Some people find DF fun.) Whether or not something is 'fun' isn't a good question...there is the internet and someone is always going to claim it's fun. The real question is "How fun and for whom is it fun?"

For example, a friend asked me if Arkham Asylum (on Steam at a discount this week) was 'fun.' I said yeah, sure, it's fun. How fun? About 15 hours worth of fun before it becomes repetitive and tedious, just like all games. It was a good experience to have, but not one that I would scream at people to run out and have. I'm so tired of one-shot experiences in gaming, and I'm tired of paying a premium $60 dollars for what amounts to a 20 hours movie experience. Screw that. I want to get games that will stay with me for a long time. So when I ask people if it's fun, what I mean is "is it really fun?" I've been through probably 10 games in the last month alone, and while all were fun on some level....I'm not playing any of them at the moment.

[subject name here]

lol at the op's poll calling people fruits for not automatically hating all modern games. way to be a homophobe 


((ps myth rox)

[Soulwynd]

There's no need for personal attacks.

Not always. But sometimes...

It's not like Valve's games are the only ones that exist you know. During playtesting they probably use special dev. copies that don't call in to Steam (for good reason I bet, Steam is nice for getting good deals but the "No connection? NO GAEMS 4 U" is crap, made almost insulting with "offline mode" which does absolutely nothing except make it so that Steam doesn't even try...) and there's the separate accounts mentioned above. Listen to the commentary, it's very interesting. They have it all down to a precise science.

While you personally may prefer another Portal to Episode 3, just as many people have the reverse opinion. There's no need to be all offensive just because someone has different tastes. Let's start a fistfight because I like A1 steak sauce, why don't we?

They can't just play in development boxes, otherwise they wont have any idea of how the game behaves with real players. I'm of the opinion they simply don't play it and have play testers tell them stuff.

The problem isn't the preference, it's the massive generalization your love for valve games caused in the last post. Saying they know what the market wants is far fetched, specially since they acquired fans and keep on hand-feeding said fans (while sneaking a hand in their wallets). Of course, an exception doesn't make the rule, it was just an example of how the only single player game from them I liked was more like an added bonus than an actual game. Don't take what I said as offensive, because I didn't mean it that way, more like a playful way, since you have to agree it was really fanboyish, the only thing missing were some pompoms. =p

lol at the op's poll calling people fruits for not automatically hating all modern games. way to be a homophobe 


((ps myth rox)

Op here, you can call me Soulwynd and if you knew me one bit, you'd know I make fun of pretty much everything. Even tho sometimes the fun is also meaningful and serious, but in this case it was more because fruits don't hate things, they're flamboyantly gay. As in happy gay, not sleep-with-the-same-sex-gay. Get it?

PS. THIS IS A JOKE.

I cannot stress this enough. A game is not good because it follows some "superior" design paradigm, but because it is FUN. NOTHING else matters. You can criticize a type of game all you like, as long as it is fun it doesn't matter one bit. The main problem is that the majority of gamers have very low standards of fun, accepting only mildly entertaining games as amazing instead of demanding something truly good.

As for valve, I am very impressed with them for pushing back portal 2's release date. A game should never be pushed out the door before it's finished, but most developers don't give those who actually make the game the authority to decide when they are done and instead release the game at some arbitrary time far before it is ready to be sold.

I'm Schilcote, and I approve this message.

EDIT:

I also agree with nenjin says below. Still, they probably won't make the same mistake again. Probably.

Fun is very relative. Sometimes you're not looking for fun when you get a game either. Sometimes you look for challenge, some other times a more sandboxy feeling. For example, I think DF can be fun but it's not always. It has other things beyond plain fun that make up for it and I consider it one of the greatest games we have.

There's also adult fun and childish fun, in a sense, despise there really being no set age to enjoy either/both. I think the market is a bit too geared towards childish fun, leaving out mature themes. For example, I think it will be rare to see another Max Payne-like game for a while. Yes, it wasn't a very realistic game and the story was a very old school private eye thing to the point of being ridiculous. But it dealt with mature themes very openly.

Valve has that luxury with Portal 2 because they're publishing it.

I thought they were with EA for boxes still. I wouldn't be surprised if the box publisher of P2 was EA.

[nenjin]

Narp. At least not according to IGN (and yeah, I know....)

http://cheats.ign.com/objects/142/14237322.html

Lists Valve as the publisher. I didn't look that hard, but I didn't see EA popping up anywhere in mention to Portal 2. Besides, "experimental and creative" doesn't exactly describe what EA looks for in a title.

[Soulwynd]

They might not sell boxed sets at all for portal 2.

i wouldn't be surprised about that either.

I'd be surprised if they gave it for free. =p

[Grakelin]

Every time you try to justify your fruit comment, you only dig a hole deeper.

I'm a bit confused about what mature elements in Max Payne are explored that haven't been explored since then?

[nenjin]

I think he means a game with its overall grit and noir value. I can think of a couple games at least that focus on mature themes; the Suffering jumps straight to mind, and the Suffering 2. Nothing quite like Max Payne 2 out there though. Nothing really has it's sense of style or story-telling. The narrative in Max Payne 2 just gets downright odd after a while.

[subject name here]

Op here, you can call me Soulwynd and if you knew me one bit, you'd know I make fun of pretty much everything. Even tho sometimes the fun is also meaningful and serious, but in this case it was more because fruits don't hate things, they're flamboyantly gay. As in happy gay, not sleep-with-the-same-sex-gay. Get it?

oh okay you're only calling them flamboyantly gay for liking modern games i guess that makes everything okay!

[Xotes]

Gay is a synonym for happy, Subject. The odds of it being used in that sense nowadays, however, is admittedly highly unlikely.

[Schilcote]

The problem isn't the preference, it's the massive generalization your love for valve games caused in the last post. Saying they know what the market wants is far fetched, specially since they acquired fans and keep on hand-feeding said fans (while sneaking a hand in their wallets). O\

Well, exactly. HL2/Portal/TF2 fans ARE their market. They're targeting a specific demographic (medium-hardcore gamers who like either teamwork or story and puzzles), and they even have a computer program on all their customer's computers to spy on them . They have an even base of established customers, and the customer base is large enough that they can make a profit simply pandering to these people.

Also, the main reason I talk about Valve so much is because Valve's games are the ones that stick out the  most in my mind. In fact, I think the games of the Half-Life series are the only ones I've ever actually played a paid version of (I have Shareware Quake on my Wii, though, which is actually quite easy to control)...

[Draco18s]

Also, the main reason I talk about Valve so much is because Valve's games are the ones that stick out the  most in my mind. In fact, I think the games of the Half-Life series are the only ones I've ever actually played a paid version of (I have Shareware Quake on my Wii, though, which is actually quite easy to control)...

I didn't care about Valve until Portal came along.  I even played Narbacular Drop.  I only have HL2 because I pre-ordered the Orange Box.  I played them, they were fairly decent FPS games with a pretty good story...but nothing to write home about IMO.

I didn't expect to like TF2 too much--never heard of Team Fortress, the "Meet the ____" videos were kind of entertaining, didn't care for competitive FPS--but I've put in almost 634 hours (according to Steam).  That's about 7.8 cents an hour (assuming $50 for just TF2 of the Orange Box price).  Or  slightly more than 3 cents an hour (at the $20 value of TF2 purchased alone).

If I add in the rest of the orange box (some hours seem to be missing; I know my first run of Portal was 7 hours and Steam has me at 2.2 on record, and no hours for HL2:ep1) I push up towards 700 hours.  7.1 cents per hour paid for the entire collection.

I also have just over 303 hours in the L4D authoring tools, and another 367 in the Source SDK (TF2 mapping).

1370 hours of entertainment.  3.6 cents an hour* (every penny well spent).

*4.985 cents, if you don't include the L4D mapping.

[Soulwynd]

Every time you try to justify your fruit comment, you only dig a hole deeper.

I'm a bit confused about what mature elements in Max Payne are explored that haven't been explored since then?

You mean, every single -only once- time? There's no hole to dig, It was a joke.

Give an example then.

I think he means a game with its overall grit and noir value. I can think of a couple games at least that focus on mature themes; the Suffering jumps straight to mind, and the Suffering 2. Nothing quite like Max Payne 2 out there though. Nothing really has it's sense of style or story-telling. The narrative in Max Payne 2 just gets downright odd after a while.

Hm, I haven't played those two, are they mainly console games? And yes, Max Payne 2 deals with a self-justified serial killer (max) going deeper into his nuttyness.

oh okay you're only calling them flamboyantly gay for liking modern games i guess that makes everything okay!

Gay is a synonym for happy, Subject. The odds of it being used in that sense nowadays, however, is admittedly highly unlikely.

Yes, you have to be flamboyantly gay to enjoy most of the crappy games that are thrown at us. Being anal about it isn't required tho. (See what I did there?)

PS. THIS IS STILL A JOKE. HOVER THE MOUSE OVER THE WORDS TO SEE THAT IT WAS A WORD PLAY.

Well, exactly. HL2/Portal/TF2 fans ARE their market.

I think the games of the Half-Life series are the only ones I've ever actually played a paid version of

Aha, if that's what you meant on the post back there, okay.

But man, no wonder why you like them so much, with that small selection of paid games. Assuming you don't fly the black and skully colors of a pirate vessel.

I didn't care about Valve until Portal came along. 

I didn't expect to like TF2 too much--never heard of Team Fortress

I played HL1, which was the only one I actually liked enough to not want to kill myself in the middle of the process. I can say the same as you about TF2 which was the reason I got steam to begin with.