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[Lord Shonus]

I've never had a problem getting everything I need on embark by simply ditching the axes for a pile of tetrahedrite, and this way I don't have to make upteen jillon worthless rock crafts to buy from the caravan, just to have someone else hit a craft mood right as the guy making the crafts hits legendary, leaving me with two dwarves legendary in a skill I would be just as happy to never use.

If the billon from tetrahedrite raction strikes you as scummy, simply replace it with copper, then add two platinum nuggets. I've bought out whole dwarven caravans (sans clothes and anvils] witht that setup.

[Neonivek]

I use wine for cooking sometimes, it's not that strange is it?
Okay, using wine to cook wine spiced with wine is a bit weird, but that's not really an exploit but more like an imperfection if you ask me.

The actual part that makes it an exploit, ignoring how much they are worth, is that they can ultra-expand (because you can cook whole stacks of alcohol) the amount of food stacks you can get. It is the easiest way to earn tons of money

[Arrkhal]

So far most people are arguing that starting without an anvil is a viable strategy when in order for it not to be over-rated they would need to prove that the money you spend with an anvil is absolutely vital and should be used somewhere else.

Well, actually, you could just do a number-crunch to determine where the cutoff point is for an anvil being a numerically superior proposition, for a specific goal.  Like if you need as many early-game steel weapons as possible.

Prebuilt, steel weapons are 300 bucks each.  Forged after embarking, 150 to 160 bucks each.  Assuming time is of the essence and you buy charcoal, then the break-even point is right around 7 weapons, enough to arm your starting party.  Of course, you don't actually get enough points get 7 steel weapons either way (2100 bought, 2120 manufactured).

It does work out nicely if you want 7 copper axes to clearcut an elven forest, though.  1 anvil + 7 bars + 4 wood + 2 stone (making charcoal on site) = 1088, compared to 2100 for 7 steel axes.

Personally, my biggest priority is skills which are hard/annoying to level up.  Ironically, that means giving up the anvil in order to boost metalworking skills on the starting 7.  Makes perfect sense!

[Neonivek]

Of the important level up skills that are hard to level up there is just Armor and Weapon smithing oddly enough. (Well AND Crossbow due ot the expense)

[Os Q]

I'd much rather ditch the two Steel Axes and bring a skilled smith with me, some ore, and simply make myself Platinum and Brass Goblets, with some Bronze for Battle Axes, picks, and Bolts. Gives me plenty to trade with by the time the caravan shows up, I can get my metal industry up in a hurry, and I get a much higher chance of a Legendary Weapon or Armor smith early on.

This.

I used to prefer going without an anvil and spending the points on skills, but now I ditch the axes and use them to buy:
1 piece of charcoal
a lot of bituminous coal
some cassiterite and tetrahedrite to make bronze
some weaponsmithing and armor skill points
and at least 10 logs, to get my carpenter to make beds right away

I think making an alloy requires less fuel than making just a pure element:

1 bar copper ore + 1 bar tin ore + 1 fuel piece = 2 bronze bars
1 bar iron + 1 fuel piece = 1 iron bar

it really depends on your style and the local conditions: (danger from invaders and wildlife, leather, cloth, bone and food supply and magma availibility)

[rufio]

I've thought about doing that, actually, but I've never played a fort where the first human caravan didn't come with an anvil in it.  It seems kind of pointless to bring an anvil at first, when you're going to be able to buy one a short time later.  You can't buy skills from the caravans.

[Mephansteras]

I've thought about doing that, actually, but I've never played a fort where the first human caravan didn't come with an anvil in it.  It seems kind of pointless to bring an anvil at first, when you're going to be able to buy one a short time later.  You can't buy skills from the caravans.

No, but your starting 7 is going to gain skill REALLY quickly anyway, and only the various Metalsmithing skills are really hard to skill up (And my anvil build starts with as many points on the Smith as possible). By the time I get my first migrants all of my starting 7 are pretty proficient in their chosen skill anyway and having a fully functional smithing operation is both profitable and useful.

[Retro]

I've never been focused on military... effectively ever. Generally I ditch the anvil and one of the axes, then grab a metric fuckton of food, booze, and seeds. I have a full-time farmer and full-time chef on every embark. This basically lets me support myself forever, and as I'm usually focused on megaprojects rather than military and wealth, I sometimes don't even bother buying an anvil until five-ish years in. It's all up to player preference, really.

[Mephansteras]

Which I think is the whole point of the OP. Both Anvil and no-Anvil starting builds are effective. Which is 'better' depends entirely on the player and the focus of the fort.

[happydog23]

I bring an anvil.


I recently starting bringing ore to make my axe's, and like to hermit my 7 starting dwarves till i have a decent "forward base" established and then I start doing enough mining and such to get my fort ready for immigrants.  I normally miss 2 or 3 caravans (1ish from each race) before I even build a depot.  I also bring a lot of wood.  I try to stretch the wood a little further too by bringing off by one of every type of food and booze (though normally a lot more booze) (so 1,11,21,etc) I like to keep my starting 7 inside until I have had migrants and set up a military.

I normally don't run short on points but then I also tend to spread some of my skills around and skip some of the ones I consider minor... mining, lumberjack, carpentry.  I normally try to boost a couple of dwarves socially (pick a leader and future "broker" that does everything but leader), and then get some metal working skills and such on the other dwarves.  I also try to bring 3-5 of anything that might be requested for a strange mood...

Speaking of, strange moods is one more reason i bring an Anvil.  I've had forge moods before I even considered starting my metal industry, and I would have most likely lost the dwarf if I hadn't brought one.

[Arrkhal]

Of the important level up skills that are hard to level up there is just Armor and Weapon smithing oddly enough. (Well AND Crossbow due ot the expense).

Yep, makes perfect sense!

But let's try some more number crunching, because it's fun.

2060 points to start.  Using all 10 points costs 50 to 70 for each dwarf.

A no-quality steel weapon does 133% damage.  But a Proficient weaponsmith is only a 35-point investment, and his first weapons will do, on average, 143% damage due to quality mod.  So starting with iron bars will actually result in slightly better quality equipment on average.  That tilts things quite a bit.  A starting party could actually produce 16 to 19 iron weapons with their starting points (without doing any woodcutting), though they'd have no food and no other skills.

A full set of no-quality steel chain armor is 4950 points if bought at embark, obviously totally unreasonable.  However, only 7 bars are required to forge a full set, or 9 for plate.  1597 to 1673 points gives you everything you need to equip 1 soldier with full iron plate (no layering) and a single iron weapon (both smiths proficient), with no woodcutting or mining.  Pretty tight, but doable for a challenge game (1 knight, his personal blacksmith, a squire with misc skills, and 4 peasants?).

[Dorf3000]

Anvils are useful for fortresses that have survived a few years, unless you're doing a specific challenge.  Even without axes you're better off bringing more wood and waiting to buy an axe from the autumn caravan.  Without picks would be hard but then you'd need over 1000 points to make one vs 20 for a copper pick, and you could still buy one from the first traders if you have any food at all.  Usually metal working doesn't really take off until you have miners skilled enough to retrieve ore, or start receiving shipments of goblinite.

1000 points buys a lot of stuff that gets used in the first year, unlike anvils.

[Iapetus]

I rarely do any smithing in the first couple of years.

However, on at least two occasions when I embarked without an anvil, I got moody dwarves wanting to use a forge (and going insane) before I managed to acquire an anvil for them.

[Haspen]

I never bring the anvil.

And I don't care about 'numbers'

If I ever need anvil, and that doesn't happen around 2-3 year of the fortress, I just buy one from oh so helpful human caravan.

Not iron but steel one? Sure, have a some more of *Limestone mugs*, friends!

[CaveLobsterShell]

To throw my two cents in, I don't often bring an anvil. I can buy it in the first year easily.

I don't buy more food, though - I'd rather spend my starting points on buying things that will be unavailable in large quantity at the fort (and can only be had in dribbles from the caravans). I'll bring bountiful bauxite for magma map mechanisms, multitudinous marble for maps without flux, and some bituminous coal (and a charcoal) to jump start my metal/glass industries (three seasons after starting, when I have my first anvil), usually to make a magma pump so I won't need coke anymore. It's all cheap compared to an anvil, too - 1000 points gets you 100 bauxite and 100 marble! On a map with magma, do you want an anvil, or do you want to not have to carefully ration your bauxite floodgates and mechanisms? On a fluxless map, would you rather have an anvil immediately or an extra 50 steel later?

Heck, I don't even bring a steel axe. First off, it's silly that we can't bring copper axes; second off, a steel axe is equivalent to ONE HUNDRED LUMBER, which is NOT going to get used in the first year or two - plenty of time to forge or buy an axe.

It IS simpler to bring an anvil and an axe and get everything started immediately, but it's just not quite as efficient a use of your starting resources. You need food, and booze, and dogs, and skills, but other than that I think it's better to plan ahead and bring the resources that won't be available in your fort location.