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[Shinziril]

Happydog, the savegame is here (it's just a quick embark that had enough equipment to test the hypothesis):
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=1798

You'll note that it includes a testbed underground, which fails to produce any power (just as you said).

[happydog23]

epdtry, another trick I was looking at that might allow you to squeeze some more power out of the system is if you add a diagonal flow on the pump level you might be able to put a waterwheel on the level above the pump (which if cleverly placed will only require the extra power of a single mechanism).  At that point you'd have diagonal flow to power the waterwheel while the pressure from that flow powers the level below....

Might have some flow issues, i haven't tested it yet, but if the system is already there or outside you get more power for essentially no space usage

[happydog23]

Did some testing on perpetual motion.  Here's the simplest and most compact perpetual motion plant I could find, in words:

1.  Dig a single-tile hole in the ground (with the Channel designation). 
2.  Fill the hole with water via dwarven bucket brigade (the Pond activity zone).  They'll only fill it to 6/7, but that's okay. 
3.  Build a gear assembly next to the hole for support, and build a waterwheel with its center tile over the hole.  The waterwheel will extract energy from the water (don't ask how).
4.  Use the power for your nefarious plans!
5.  ? ? ?
6.  Profit!

Tested and works IF outside.    Tested with Shinz's test map and one of my older forts on 40d16.  Get nothing if inside, works great outside. 

Also tested in an outdoor hole that I channeled instead of constructed.  Did not run. 

So it appears that an outdoor 3x3 "cell" with a constructed floor and walls and then filled with water to 6/7 will run a waterwheel...

Worth a bug report?  or think it matters for the next version?

[epdtry]

epdtry, another trick I was looking at that might allow you to squeeze some more power out of the system is if you add a diagonal flow on the pump level you might be able to put a waterwheel on the level above the pump (which if cleverly placed will only require the extra power of a single mechanism).  At that point you'd have diagonal flow to power the waterwheel while the pressure from that flow powers the level below....

Might have some flow issues, i haven't tested it yet, but if the system is already there or outside you get more power for essentially no space usage

I like this idea.  You could actually put two waterwheels on the pump+1 level, one over each water-filled tile -- the test of my latest design showed that both source and destination tiles acquire flow when water spreads out.

There is one thing I'm worried about, which I suspect is the "flow issue" you mentioned: the pump cannot operate until the water has spread out on the P-1 level and then also spread out on P+0.  I think the water spreading happens every 10-30 ticks (exact timing seems random), so if the timeout for flow is less than 50 ticks or so, you'll likely see intermittent drops in power output.

Did some testing on perpetual motion.  Here's the simplest and most compact perpetual motion plant I could find, in words:

1.  Dig a single-tile hole in the ground (with the Channel designation). 
2.  Fill the hole with water via dwarven bucket brigade (the Pond activity zone).  They'll only fill it to 6/7, but that's okay. 
3.  Build a gear assembly next to the hole for support, and build a waterwheel with its center tile over the hole.  The waterwheel will extract energy from the water (don't ask how).
4.  Use the power for your nefarious plans!
5.  ? ? ?
6.  Profit!

Tested and works IF outside.    Tested with Shinz's test map and one of my older forts on 40d16.  Get nothing if inside, works great outside. 

Also tested in an outdoor hole that I channeled instead of constructed.  Did not run. 

So it appears that an outdoor 3x3 "cell" with a constructed floor and walls and then filled with water to 6/7 will run a waterwheel...

Worth a bug report?  or think it matters for the next version?

Definitely sounds like a bug to me.  What logical reason would there be for it to work outside but not inside, and only in constructed walls?

[gtmattz]

Did some testing on perpetual motion.  Here's the simplest and most compact perpetual motion plant I could find, in words:

1.  Dig a single-tile hole in the ground (with the Channel designation). 
2.  Fill the hole with water via dwarven bucket brigade (the Pond activity zone).  They'll only fill it to 6/7, but that's okay. 
3.  Build a gear assembly next to the hole for support, and build a waterwheel with its center tile over the hole.  The waterwheel will extract energy from the water (don't ask how).
4.  Use the power for your nefarious plans!
5.  ? ? ?
6.  Profit!

Tested and works IF outside.    Tested with Shinz's test map and one of my older forts on 40d16.  Get nothing if inside, works great outside. 

Also tested in an outdoor hole that I channeled instead of constructed.  Did not run. 

So it appears that an outdoor 3x3 "cell" with a constructed floor and walls and then filled with water to 6/7 will run a waterwheel...

Worth a bug report?  or think it matters for the next version?

I figured out another requirement...

Not just outside, you have to have a brook or stream as well, so outside with already flowing water.

I replicated shins structure from the movie on my 3x3 flat no-brook map and got nothing, so i tried a multi level map (again no brook) and again got nothing.  So i looked around on shinzis map some more and noticed the river, so genned a new world and embarked on a stream and was able to replicate this.  But yes it does have to be outside.

Now, as for the usefulnes of this... Well since you are required to have a river, the need for perpetual motion machines is sort of moot now isnt it?

[Alrenous]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The left side shows the upper layer; the right side shows the lower.
[Edit: The pump pumps water from the north]

What's the motivation for the three open tiles to the right of the waterwheel? Doesn't a single diagonal tile work?

[Dorf3000]

Definitely sounds like a bug to me.  What logical reason would there be for it to work outside but not inside, and only in constructed walls?

Probably related to the same hack that allows you to create fresh water in a saltwater embark, but only if you pump it into an entirely constructed container and don't pass it through an aquifer layer.

[happydog23]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The left side shows the upper layer; the right side shows the lower.
[Edit: The pump pumps water from the north]

What's the motivation for the three open tiles to the right of the waterwheel? Doesn't a single diagonal tile work?

A single diagonal works MOST the time, but not quite all the time in that setup I believe.  He added the 3 extra to make sure it worked all the time.

[happydog23]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Did some testing on perpetual motion.  Here's the simplest and most compact perpetual motion plant I could find, in words:

1.  Dig a single-tile hole in the ground (with the Channel designation). 
2.  Fill the hole with water via dwarven bucket brigade (the Pond activity zone).  They'll only fill it to 6/7, but that's okay. 
3.  Build a gear assembly next to the hole for support, and build a waterwheel with its center tile over the hole.  The waterwheel will extract energy from the water (don't ask how).
4.  Use the power for your nefarious plans!
5.  ? ? ?
6.  Profit!

Tested and works IF outside.    Tested with Shinz's test map and one of my older forts on 40d16.  Get nothing if inside, works great outside. 

Also tested in an outdoor hole that I channeled instead of constructed.  Did not run. 

So it appears that an outdoor 3x3 "cell" with a constructed floor and walls and then filled with water to 6/7 will run a waterwheel...

Worth a bug report?  or think it matters for the next version?

I figured out another requirement...

Not just outside, you have to have a brook or stream as well, so outside with already flowing water.

I replicated shins structure from the movie on my 3x3 flat no-brook map and got nothing, so i tried a multi level map (again no brook) and again got nothing.  So i looked around on shinzis map some more and noticed the river, so genned a new world and embarked on a stream and was able to replicate this.  But yes it does have to be outside.

Now, as for the usefulnes of this... Well since you are required to have a river, the need for perpetual motion machines is sort of moot now isnt it?

All the same, I threw a bug report up at http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48365.0

[Viprince]

Brooks and rivers generally have flow. gtmattz's discovery would suggest that the water tiles somehow get confused as part of the flowing body of water. Don't ask me how or why but that's what it looks like to me.

Constructed walls (floors?) don;t get damp, there's a difference with a hole in the ground.

Anyone try doing it on different z-levels compared to the river/brook? Could have to do with the lever at which the water spawns for the brook/river or at which it flows off the map.

Defs a bug anyway

[Alrenous]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The left side shows the upper layer; the right side shows the lower.
[Edit: The pump pumps water from the north]

What's the motivation for the three open tiles to the right of the waterwheel? Doesn't a single diagonal tile work?

A single diagonal works MOST the time, but not quite all the time in that setup I believe.  He added the 3 extra to make sure it worked all the time.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood or not, which means I should have had a diagram.

Why this:

Code: [Select]

77
7 7
 77
 7
77

and not this?

Code: [Select]

7
7 7
 7
 7
77

[epdtry]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood or not, which means I should have had a diagram.

Why this:

Code: [Select]

77
7 7
 77
 7
77

and not this?

Code: [Select]

7
7 7
 7
 7
77

The second design will leak water.  It may or may not completely stop working, but I'm pretty sure you'll at least get intermittent power failures.  Consider the following process:

• The pump picks up the 7/7 from its input tile and moves it to the output tile.
• Water spreads diagonally from the northernmost tile to the input tile.
• The pump picks up water from the input tile.  The output tile and all orthogonally-connected tiles on the lower level are full, so the water gets placed on the upper level.
• The extra water on the upper level is now free to go anywhere, which means it will eventually leak out of the system.

[Shinziril]

Water tiles removed from the river (or a murky pool on a map with a river) having flow would explain a lot, such as a pump-filled cistern that was filled from a river being capable of powering waterwheels. 

And perpetual motion machines can be slightly useful even on a map with a river, if you need power somewhere far away from the river.  Although, since my design doesn't work inside, that's still not perfect . . .  I'll head back to the plotting board for a while.

[Alrenous]

Ah right, the pressure thing. Thanks.

[happydog23]

Brooks and rivers generally have flow. gtmattz's discovery would suggest that the water tiles somehow get confused as part of the flowing body of water. Don't ask me how or why but that's what it looks like to me.

Constructed walls (floors?) don;t get damp, there's a difference with a hole in the ground.

Anyone try doing it on different z-levels compared to the river/brook? Could have to do with the lever at which the water spawns for the brook/river or at which it flows off the map.

Defs a bug anyway

I did my test above the level of the brook... so Z0= brook water level, z1=walk on top of brook (normal spot for wheels), z2 = my water level, z3 = my water wheel.