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[Neruz]

Congratulations on a delightful strawman post there dorf. You might want to try actually responding to the words in my post, instead of the words in your head. It helps you know, and it looks far less scummy.

[Neruz]

I feel i should also add that your statement that 'people are guilty until proven innocent' is rediculous and completely wrong.

In Mafia, by default people are considered to be in a quantum state of neither scum nor town, until proven otherwise. Generally most people go with 'town until proven otherwise' because the odds are a random chosen person is town, not scum.


If by default we were to assume that all players were scum, we would not go scumhunting, what would be the point? We've already put everyone in the scum group, looking for reasons to put people into the scum group is therefore a waste of time. Instead, we would go 'townhunting', looking for reasons to put people into the town group.

But we don't do this. We go scumhunting, we look for reasons to put someone into the scum group, and if someone does not show us a good reason to end up in the scum group, we put them in the town group by default. In fact we usually shy away from townhunting, because that's what the scum want to know, but such information is mostly irrelevant to the town.



Finally, i don't recall actually saying that 'innocent until proven guilty' applies to mafia games. I'm sure i would have remembered saying that. I do remember saying that the reason that rule exists in the court system is to prevent lawyers using clever questions like yours to lead the jury, something which is most definitely to be discouraged in a court system. But it should be quite ovbious that no such rule exists in Mafia, the reason being of course, because we want people to put forth leading questions, leading questions are an excellent and almost surefire scum tell.

[dorf]

In fact we usually shy away from townhunting, because that's what the scum want to know, but such information is mostly irrelevant to the town.

I didn't quite understand that statement. What did you mean by that?

Finally, i don't recall actually saying that 'innocent until proven guilty' applies to mafia games. I'm sure i would have remembered saying that. I do remember saying that the reason that rule exists in the court system is to prevent lawyers using clever questions like yours to lead the jury, something which is most definitely to be discouraged in a court system.

Why do you even bring it up, if it doesn't add anything to the content?

Ironically, this is also why the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule applies in the courts. Once you start using arguments like this that start from the other side, assuming the person is guilty\scum and then eliminating all other possibilities, you're influencing people to follow you, and influencing people to follow you is very, very scummy.

You were referring here to my method or reasons of accusing you of scumdom, right? That seemed to me, like you were insinuating that that applies or should apply here.
But, how else should I react to your undoubtedly anti-town behavior? You have done nothing that would help lure out scum. It is only now that you have started to contribute!
If I understand correctly, you want us to be like you and not scumhunt?

Tell me, how did your previous posts help with hunting the scum or otherwise be helpful to us?

[Neruz]

In fact we usually shy away from townhunting, because that's what the scum want to know, but such information is mostly irrelevant to the town.

I didn't quite understand that statement. What did you mean by that?

Whether or not someone is town is relevant only if it can be used to determine who is scum. Otherwise it is irrelevant. If, for example, i was to determine that Vector was town, this information would be completely irrelevant to me, as i already consider Vector to be town, due to a lack of scumtells on his part. However, similar information to alignment is that of role, as often one can be used to confirm the other. While town alignment is useless to scum, role is very important. The scum want to find all the power roles and they want to trick the town into lynching them, or, failing that, night kill said power role.

Basically, the scum are hunting for town roles. The town should not hunt for town, because that helps the scum hunt for town roles, instead, the town should hunt for scum and find town as they go through the process of eliminating possibilities.

Finally, i don't recall actually saying that 'innocent until proven guilty' applies to mafia games. I'm sure i would have remembered saying that. I do remember saying that the reason that rule exists in the court system is to prevent lawyers using clever questions like yours to lead the jury, something which is most definitely to be discouraged in a court system.

Why do you even bring it up, if it doesn't add anything to the content?

Because it very much does. What you did there is a stereotypical leading question. Such questions are banned from usage in courts precisely because they are a powerful tool of persuasion.

Now tell me, why would a townie want to use such a powerfully persuasive tool? I can't think of one, the Town live behind truth, not lies, so they have no need of leading questions, but the scum live behind lies, leading questions are an excellent weapon for them. Subtle persuasion is, more often than not, one of the best scum tells you can ever get.

Ironically, this is also why the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule applies in the courts. Once you start using arguments like this that start from the other side, assuming the person is guilty\scum and then eliminating all other possibilities, you're influencing people to follow you, and influencing people to follow you is very, very scummy.

You were referring here to my method or reasons of accusing you of scumdom, right? That seemed to me, like you were insinuating that that applies or should apply here.
But, how else should I react to your undoubtedly anti-town behavior? You have done nothing that would help lure out scum. It is only now that you have started to contribute!
If I understand correctly, you want us to be like you and not scumhunt?

You should have reacted to my apparant anti-town behaviour by providing reasons as to why you feel it is anti town. You should not have reacted with leading questions, and you most certainly should not have used an extremely shallow and simplistic 'wide scan' as cover for your bandwagon vote. And you most certainly should not put words into other people's mouths. Like you just did, right there.

Tell me, how did your previous posts help with hunting the scum or otherwise be helpful to us?

It found you, i'd say they worked rather well.

[Neruz]

In case you're wondering, this is a fairly standard play for me. I usually float around being silly until i find a slip, then i come down on that slip as hard as i can. You sir, have slipped.

I also do not reccomend that everyone else play like this, as it wouldn't work, at all.

[dorf]

Finally, i don't recall actually saying that 'innocent until proven guilty' applies to mafia games. I'm sure i would have remembered saying that. I do remember saying that the reason that rule exists in the court system is to prevent lawyers using clever questions like yours to lead the jury, something which is most definitely to be discouraged in a court system.

Why do you even bring it up, if it doesn't add anything to the content?

Because it very much does. What you did there is a stereotypical leading question. Such questions are banned from usage in courts precisely because they are a powerful tool of persuasion.

Now tell me, why would a townie want to use such a powerfully persuasive tool? I can't think of one, the Town live behind truth, not lies, so they have no need of leading questions, but the scum live behind lies, leading questions are an excellent weapon for them. Subtle persuasion is, more often than not, one of the best scum tells you can ever get.

I don't understand your "subtle persuasion" argument. You say I am using just that to persuade others into lynching you, but the thing is that I wasn't being subtle.
The statements I made were clear - you are scum. Furthermore, I exposed your anti-town behavior. The others don't need persuading, because your actions already persuaded them.

Ironically, this is also why the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule applies in the courts. Once you start using arguments like this that start from the other side, assuming the person is guilty\scum and then eliminating all other possibilities, you're influencing people to follow you, and influencing people to follow you is very, very scummy.

You were referring here to my method or reasons of accusing you of scumdom, right? That seemed to me, like you were insinuating that that applies or should apply here.
But, how else should I react to your undoubtedly anti-town behavior? You have done nothing that would help lure out scum. It is only now that you have started to contribute!
If I understand correctly, you want us to be like you and not scumhunt?

You should have reacted to my apparant anti-town behaviour by providing reasons as to why you feel it is anti town. You should not have reacted with leading questions, and you most certainly should not have used an extremely shallow and simplistic 'wide scan' as cover for your bandwagon vote. And you most certainly should not put words into other people's mouths. Like you just did, right there.

Quote please.
I have asked you a few questions. Some of them wanted further explanation on your behavior/actions, and a few of them asked for validation of my understanding.

Tell me, how did your previous posts help with hunting the scum or otherwise be helpful to us?

It found you, i'd say they worked rather well.

I didn't ask, whether they worked or not. I asked specifically how your posts "worked" in finding scum.

In case you're wondering, this is a fairly standard play for me. I usually float around being silly until i find a slip, then i come down on that slip as hard as i can. You sir, have slipped.

I also do not reccomend that everyone else play like this, as it wouldn't work, at all.

Why would you play like that? It completely backfired.

I'm hesitant to believe you now because of the "scum will do anything to evade a lynch" fact. :x

[Neruz]

I don't understand your "subtle persuasion" argument. You say I am using just that to persuade others into lynching you, but the thing is that I wasn't being subtle.
The statements I made were clear - you are scum. Furthermore, I exposed your anti-town behavior. The others don't need persuading, because your actions already persuaded them.

I've already pointed out the part of your post i am talking about. And my anti-town behaviour needed no 'exposing', it was plain for all to see. In fact, three people had pointed it out before you, a bit slow on the uptake are we?

Quote please.
I have asked you a few questions. Some of them wanted further explanation on your behavior/actions, and a few of them asked for validation of my understanding.

If I understand correctly, you want us to be like you and not scumhunt?

I didn't ask, whether they worked or not. I asked specifically how your posts "worked" in finding scum.

Which ones? The ones where i uncovered your scumslip or the silly ones beforehand where i was just wasting time?

Why would you play like that? It completely backfired.

Not really, i'm not dead yet. My death and subsequent town-flip will actually help rather alot if people are paying attention; those that try and pass the lynch off as 'oh well he was acting scummy' will paint themselves rather ovbiously as scum.

I'm hesitant to believe you now because of the "scum will do anything to evade a lynch" fact. :x

The fact that you planted the fourth vote on me should mean you already believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am scum. The fact that this is apparantly not the case is a solid sign of indecision, which is typical for a scum unsure if this bandwagon is really going the way he hoped it would.


Actually right now you're doing a pretty much textbook 'oh shit i am discovered' scum response.

[Vector]

Yes, but no-one lets me play by my style...

Sorry if I seem a little pissed off, I'm not feeling on the best of colors.

You know, the main point I was trying to make is that Bayer is not the largest asset for town.  We didn't let him play in his style, either.  Hell, I spent an entire quicktopic-worth calling him "Sir SexySheep" and "Mr. Fuzzbot."

The town may be nicer to him than they used to be, since he cleaned up his style, but the scum (... or at least I >_>) still make fun of him mercilessly 


Good morning, dorf.  Let's talk about being scum, shall we?

Dorf, Who do you think is scum?

FoS'ing people WITH reasoning got me lynched once, so imagine how suspicious you must look right now.

But it is a valid question, after all. I have read through this thread, and will now give out the results of my scan of everybody. Starting with you.

This is what we like to call a "passive jump."  He FoS's you to show you that he wants a question answered; you jump a mile in the air.  You're not a newbie, anymore.  There's no reason for you to act like this unless you're newbie scum.

MagmaDeath, it seems, it is I that should be pointing the FoS on you. You have posted only a few posts, since the game started:

OMGUS mentality.  Not good, scumbucket.

MagmaDeath, it seems, it is I that should be pointing the FoS on you. You have posted only a few posts, since the game started:
RVS, extension request, two okay attacks and just now you buddied with Leaf.
Care to explain that?

All right, MagmaDeath deserves an FoS for not being archetypically town.  Fair enough.  We all deserve an FoS or five.

Errol, you made a few more posts than MD, the last few were defending EK, suggesting EK to improve his playstyle, and making casual conversation with EK .
We don't need you to defend players under scrutiny. We need you to hunt for scum!
I'm still not sure how to interpret this friendship with EK... Are you friends IRL, or why are you being so nice with him?

And then you make another attack, which also ends in a question.  Please also note your use of ellipses: they're a fairly standard passiveness-tell.

Vector could be more aggressive, but I don't feel he's done anything particularly anti-town. I liked, when he attacked Kashyyk(sp?), but what's happened to "Errol, don't think I'm not watching you.", Vector?

More attempts to spray suspicion AT ALL PEOPLE EVER.  Please also note that you've contradicted yourself: "Town until proven scum" and "Guilty until proven innocent."  Conflicting ideologies... but why?

Let's look at this from my perspective, if I were trying to kill myself.  I've bandwagoned aggressively, buddied, lurked heavily, and allowed no one to get a real read on me (and now injected a healthy dose of WIFOM  ).  What did you see?  Nothing, because you're scared of me and don't want to get into a fight when you're on the wrong side.  Additionally, you're taking any excuse possible to put suspicion on everyone.

"What happened to 'Errol, I'm watching you?'"

I'm watching him.  Exactly what it said on the tin.

I'm getting pro-town vibes from Leafsnail, so far. He's active, aggressive and his claims seem on target. I wouldn't want to lose him.
That makes it even more funny, when someone like Neruz attacks him.

EXTREME BUDDYING POWER!!  You know, if I teach you how to buddy in one game and then you use that technique in another game I'm playing with you, directly afterwards, I'm going to catch you so fast your head will spin, pop off like a champagne cork, and go flying into geosynchronous orbit.  Like this.

He's not that active.  He's somewhat aggressive, but other players are about the same amount of aggressive.  You're either protecting a scumbuddy or trying to limpet onto the good town players.

I'm guessing the latter.  Don't even try to ingratiate yourself to me.

Neruz can't be town, can he? His posts consist of joke statements, passiveness, OMGUS and joke votes, and his post below, he admitted to: being passive on purpose, doesn't care where his vote ends up and lurking. ALL of which are anti-town behavior.

Boredom, mostly. I've been over this thread twice now and come up with nothing sufficient to tag my interest. Since i'm fairly sure Vector isn't going to get suddenly wagoned by sneaky scum, i don't particulary give a damn where my vote is. With nothing to go on, i'm fine with just watching until i can get an opening.

Although it does appear i'm about to get wagoned by sneaky scum, which is kind of cool, and would solve the boredom issue.

The last statement makes me think that he wants to get lynched (is there such a win condition?), since he was already wagoned, before he made that post.
Unvote.
I'm sorry, Neruz, but there is no way you are town.

Listen up, scumbucket.  You said "here be someone who doesn't mind getting lynched" and rather than going "That's a casket of WIFOM.  I'd better find out what's really going on" you say "LYNCH HIIIIIM."  Additionally, see Neruz' persuasive statement analysis.

Why is it that it's so very scummy for you to try to persuade in this manner?  Because you're appealing to the town.  You're trying to direct and control us, not scumhunt.  Some buddying is normal in a typical townie.  A touch of passiveness, perhaps.  I'm certainly guilty of both in most games.

You, on the other hand, are buddying with every powerful player and attacking every weak one for all you can muster.  That doesn't work, unless what you really want is for the entire town to kill itself.

Eduren wasn't really that active before, but he is being more aggresive now, so I presume he will post more?

Passive, and I don't remember the last time he posted.  Once again, you attack everything that moves.

Is Pandarsenic absent again??

Yes.

Zai is a tough nut. He's been active and aggressive, but has made that weird WIFOM accusation that I am not sure he even explained?
But we have weirder people to worry about, right now.

More passiveness, more buddying with the town, blah blah blah.  Quit it.

SirBayer, I will not even go into the scuminess of Neruz and you, and will just ask: is EK the only one you think is scum? Why did you back off (actually, I'm not sure that you even tried to attack) from Zai?
You attacked EK early in the game and that was the last trail of aggressiveness I found. Since then, you took part in casual/unnecessary/derailing conversation and seems to be in a defensive stance.
The game is not over! If you attack once, it doesn't mean you can just stop scumhunting. And that FoS on Zai was hardly an attack, seeing how your post after that one was defensive and remorseful.
Who else do you think is scum?

Now who's FoSing for no reason?  I talk about your introductory line, by the way.

We'll make a note that you can call Errol out for precisely the same issues, but he's not considered scummy for same.  Interesting.  Errol is off making friends with ExKirby, ExKirby is being defensive out the ass, SirBayer is being casual, and I'm just sitting about saying "Yeah, I'll read the thread eventually, whatever, okay," but we're not scum... and Bayer is.

The jury is still out with ExKirby.
Looking back, you were active, just not really scumhunting.
Tell me, did you even consider Khasyyk(sp?) as scum before most of other players considered him scum?

Asking dumb questions you could easily get the answers to from reading the thread.  That's not necessarily scummy--just lazy.

So, to sum up:
Neruz = scum
SirBayer = probably scum
ExKirby = could go either way
Zai = could go either way
Errol = could go either way
eduren = unable to read
MagmaDeath = unable to read
Pandarsenic = unable to read
Vector = probably town
Leafsnail = town

To sum up: You've got the three strongest players in the game high on the townie axis, and the three most suspicious by town opinion sitting high on the scummy end.

...

Lookie here, someone's hunting easy lynches.



The prosecution rests.

[Errol]

Unvote just to be sure.

I am noticing dorf being high on the passive defense axis. I recognize scummy behavior because I pulled the same in BM8, as scum (and failed, but that's a different story). Upon being attacked by Neruz you focus your fire on him and him only. Moreover, there's a lack of constructive questions on your side. You don't really try to pull out evidence of Neruz' scumminess anymore, perhaps because there haven't been any scumtells from his side since he started being constructive. Which should probably lead a townie to look for the real scum, as it can normally be assumed that a player without scumtells is town (big surprise), and exchanging blows with someone you think to be town usually is a waste of time. So, yeah, things look like you are scum, dorf.

[SirBayer]

Their argument at the moment is pretty much a textbook example of the 'escalating shouting match' defense that Scum who get found out often attempt.

I don't shout. I knock stuff down. The bigger it is, however, the harder it falls, and the louder the noise it makes when it hits the ground.

I'd like to point out that I'm not just screaming at him. There are legitimate scumtells there.

Really? Sounded a lot like screaming.

Speaking of which...

And that is the question to which I refer, ExKirby. Just throwing it off as if it isn't a big deal.

Because it wasn't. It was a random vote with a random question.

1. You are an arrogant bastard for scum.

2. If I have to scream to bring up scum, I scream.

3. Want to ever really explain why you were convinced that I was sheeping you? Or why you thought I was random-voting? Or rather, not why you honestly believed that, but why you wanted other people to believe it?

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Errol -
Leafsnail -
eduren -
Zai - eduren, ExKirby,
Pandarsenic -
SirBayer -
ExKirby - SirBayer, Zai,
dorf - Vector, Errol,
Neruz - Leafsnail, MagmaDeath, dorf,
Vector -
MagmaDeath -

Not Voting - Pandarsenic, Neruz,

6 to Hammer. Day ends Wednesday 9PM Central

Neruz has been lynched!

Neruz was the Indian Football Team (town).

'Another miss! I'm having the worst luck!' I picked up my toys, placing them back in the toy chest. This time, I placed a couple of books on top, just in case. It was such a long day today... I barely had time to make it into my bed before I fell asleep.

It was way past my bedtime.

It is now Night.

Indian Football Team
You are the Indian Football Team. Apparently, you really, really suck. You are Town.

You can draft someone to your team, making them Clumsy.

Actions:
Draft [target]: Causes target player to become Clumsy.

Attributes:
Clumsy: Player randomly selects a new target.
NOTE: This Attribute is hidden.

[webadict]

I woke up and found them on the ground. Not the dolls. The books. I don't know what to believe, but at least my toys are still safe.

It's time for breakfast... I'm gonna go eat...

Vector has been killed.

Vector has come back to life!

Vote Count
------------------------
Errol -
Leafsnail -
eduren -
Zai -
Pandarsenic -
SirBayer -
ExKirby -
dorf -
Vector -
MagmaDeath -

Not Voting - Pandarsenic, Leafsnail, MagmaDeath, dorf, Vector, Errol, SirBayer, Zai, eduren, ExKirby,

6 to Hammer. Day ends Tuesday 9PM Central

[Vector]

Good morning, dorf.  Hope you slept well.

Now, care to actually answer my accusations?

[ExKirby]

Actually, Vector, do you know what the tofu happened to you?

[Vector]

Actually, Vector, do you know what the tofu happened to you?

Yes.  It'd be better not to disclose that right now.