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[Gorobay]

Or there could be something on each subpage that refers the script to the higher level.

Ah, yeah, that'd probably be easier.

Or, the script could start at the root page and work its way down, following links to subpages, so it would only go from a high level to a lower.

It would put them somewhere else -- the script is what turns the wiki pages into .txt raw files, so that we don't have to copy/paste each individual creature.  A creature's "pre" and "post" sections wouldn't actually exist on the wiki.

Where will the creature variations be, in that case?

[Footkerchief]

It would put them somewhere else -- the script is what turns the wiki pages into .txt raw files, so that we don't have to copy/paste each individual creature.  A creature's "pre" and "post" sections wouldn't actually exist on the wiki.

Where will the creature variations be, in that case?

Ack, sorry, I'm not explaining this well.  The sections where a creature invokes the variations won't exist on the wiki.  The variations themselves will be in the page source, attached to a taxon:

Each taxon gets a single optional variation (this can just be kept in the page source, too), and a creature's raws just need two sections, between which the script inserts the necessary templates (in the process of exporting the raws to text files).

Also, I explained above (in the part regarding Toady's PM) how we can pare it down from (start / pre-variation invocations / body / post-variation invocations / end) to (start / variation invocations / end).  Let me know if it still doesn't make sense, I'm probably still not explaining it clearly.

[Thursday Postal]

Okay. Here we go. Following in your lead, Footkerchief, I helped organize part of the larger bird lists by subfamily/family. How does it look? Should I keep working in that manner? Note that lots of the ducks and the like are similar, most of those were other peoples' and I didn't want to be the one to mess with them (except the few that were in the wrong groups.)

[Footkerchief]

Okay. Here we go. Following in your lead, Footkerchief, I helped organize part of the larger bird lists by subfamily/family. How does it look? Should I keep working in that manner?

Looks great, and yes, definitely!  (Although organizing down to the family level isn't necessary for a lot of invertebrates etc.)

Note that lots of the ducks and the like are similar, most of those were other peoples' and I didn't want to be the one to mess with them (except the few that were in the wrong groups.)

If they're too similar, mess away (we can always revert if needed).  I think most of those are from a list that got added before we had any real guidelines on inclusion, so they're long overdue for being messed with.

I'm going to work through some owls now, so don't worry about that section.

[Thursday Postal]

Did parrots and cockatoos. Since parrots are known for their colors, I tried to get multiple colors in even if they were similar animals, like with the most commonly known macaws.

[Gorobay]

Let me know if it still doesn't make sense, I'm probably still not explaining it clearly.

It makes sense now.

EDIT: I have lots of questions of clarification.

Uniqueness:

• Given two species, otherwise similar, is color enough to make both merit inclusion?
• What about differences in number and size of a body part (i.e. horns, humps, wattles, or toes)?
• What about differences in biome?
• Terrestrial versus arboreal?
• If there are many similar but differently colored/sized/etc. creatures such that we decide to include only one, should we choose one specific species, or make a generic creature as a meld of all of them?

Features:

• Should we include parthenogenerators? If so, how?
• Since creatures do not live in trees (I think), should we include arboreal creatures?
• Should we include gliders and water-walkers?
• Basically, should we include creatures whose interesting unique features DF cannot model yet?
• Is there any way currently to model diet?
• Can we model color variation, as in chameleons and cuttlefish?
• Can creatures dig, like worms or moles?
• Is camouflage possible yet?
• How about vocalizations?

Tags:

• Should extinct creatures be considered [MUNDANE]?
• Should parrots have [UTTERANCES]?
• Can a creature variation delete certain body parts? I know it can swap existing parts (like QUADRUPED with HUMANOID in the example), but can it swap a part with nothing? This would be useful with legless lizards, so they can [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:LIZARD] and then delete the legs.

A question to ask Toady:

• Can we have a complete list of creature tags with explanations for those that need it?

Other:

• Should we include tardigrades and other microscopic creatures?
• What makes something vermin?
• Where will we keep the new [BODY] parts that there surely will be?
• Should we list color morphs, like the pied raven?
• How will we assign symbols for so many creatures?
• How do genetics work? Are there dominance, codominance, and carriers?

[Shoku]

Hey! well it's my first time to post here on forums, but I've been playing DF for a long time now.

This project sounds amazing, I wonder if I could make sprites for the creatures? \o/
Maybe it's useless for so many critters, but I'm up for it. I've done some art stuff for other games like for CIV3 warhammer mod

I think we're open to this, although I'm not sure how sprites work in this respect.  Does anyone know if we can have a custom sprite for each and every critter when the new release comes out?  That would be amazing.

Also you would probably have to coordinate with Mayday or someone who does graphics for DF.

You just use a few text files to say "this entity" and "this image file" and "this grid point on the image."
There shouldn't be a limit to how many you can have.

About sea creatures: if there were too many, wouldn't they eat each other and keep the population down?

They don't eat each other yet.  Unfortunately, sea and lake creatures may be a problem.  It may behoove us to turn off breeding for them at the moment, or greatly slow it down.  What is the consensus on this?

I thought the region display just plucked out five groups of animals to show at a time and if one dies or leaves the next comes in. There shouldn't be any issue with having large populations.

I never even edited a wiki entry, I prefer not to touch this to not ruin your work

If you're ok posting in a forum it shouldn't be unfamiliar to you.

[Lancensis]

Given two species, otherwise similar, is color enough to make both merit inclusion?

As ever, it's a judgement call, but I would argue not, in most cases. Usually two creatures differentiated only by colours will merely be subspecies, anyway

What about differences in number and size of a body part (i.e. horns, humps, wattles, or toes)?

Probably not, unless it's a particularly spectacular difference

What about differences in biome?

Consider making a more generalised creature, and giving it extra biomes. Some biomes, like mountains, deserts and tundra need all the variety they can get, however.

Terrestrial versus arboreal?

? I'm not sure where this would be an important distinction.

If there are many similar but differently colored/sized/etc. creatures such that we decide to include only one, should we choose one specific species, or make a generic creature as a meld of all of them?

I tend to try and create a generic creature, but I'll usually have a representative species in mind, even if I name it after the group.
 

Features:

Should we include parthenogenerators? If so, how?

Can't really be implemented, but DF animals reproduce more like spores than real animals anyway

Since creatures do not live in trees (I think), should we include arboreal creatures?

Animals don't live in trees, unless you get (un?)lucky and the game accidentally spawns a goat on top of a tree. I think they should be included nontheless.

Should we include gliders and water-walkers?

They'll have to be implemented as fliers and swimmers respectively, but I don't think that's too much of a break from reality. I think the enjoyment from having a flying frog probably outways the strangeness of occaisionally seeing it a dozen Z-levels above the trees. There are updrafts, after all

Basically, should we include creatures whose interesting unique features DF cannot model yet?

I guess it depends how integral they are to the animal, and how approximately they can be replicated. Put it on the list - if it can't be done, it's not the end of the world

Is there any way currently to model diet?

You can get them to kill other animals with [liKES_FIGHTING], attack dwarves, and steal food and drink. That's the best that can be done.

Can we model color variation, as in chameleons and cuttlefish?

Not to my knowledge. You can, however make the tile flash different colours

Can creatures dig, like worms or moles?

Nope. They can be found in caves, or by searching the ground.

Is camouflage possible yet?

With [AMBUSH_PREDATOR]

How about vocalizations?

No. Their vocalizations are a good thing to mention in the PREFSTRING, however

Tags:

Should extinct creatures be considered [MUNDANE]?

Hmmmm. Up for discussion. I would say no, though

Should parrots have [UTTERANCES]?

Heh. Well, wild parrots wouldn't know human speech. They could be given [SLOW_LEARNER] however, and they would slowly devolop conversationalist skills

Can a creature variation delete certain body parts? I know it can swap existing parts (like QUADRUPED with HUMANOID in the example), but can it swap a part with nothing? This would be useful with legless lizards, so they can [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:LIZARD] and then delete the legs.

I think they can, yes

Other:

Should we include tardigrades and other microscopic creatures?

Nah. The entire concept of microscopic creatures (apart from angels) was pretty much unknown in the medieval world. Also, if we included them, they would literally be coating every surface in the game.

What makes something vermin?

That's one for the philosophers, I suppose. It's a very pertinent question actually, and I'll have to think about that myself.

Where will we keep the new [BODY] parts that there surely will be?

Just in a new body.txt file

Should we list color morphs, like the pied raven?

Yeah, they can be implemented, so make a note of them

How will we assign symbols for so many creatures?

Convention is just the first letter of the animal's name. Vermin tend to have their own symbols.

How do genetics work? Are there dominance, codominance, and carriers?

Uh........Oh! Look at the time

[Pizdzius]

The most fun in the Ark Project isn't just the animals themselves, but also capturing them or making stuff out of them. They should drop some funky stuff, have you guys included the thought of "spotted hyena" leather, etc? Or does the game generate the names itself from the source?

[Rainseeker]

I believe it does it from the source.  However, does anyone know if the game assigns values to the creature, or do we?  As you know, some bones are more valuable than others.

[Pizdzius]

I believe it does it from the source.  However, does anyone know if the game assigns values to the creature, or do we?  As you know, some bones are more valuable than others.

yeah I think that bones and skulls of some aggressive and big feline should be more valuable than cow bones. Also the shells or maybe a new object, feathers?

[Rainseeker]

Toady has an item for eggs and feathers, we'll have to wait for that.


...Are there beaks in the game?

[Neonivek]

Toady has an item for eggs and feathers, we'll have to wait for that.


...Are there beaks in the game?

I don't think there are any animals who even have beaks in the game who arn't vermin.

It would be easy enough to make beaks but I can't speak for Toady.

[Lancensis]

The most fun in the Ark Project isn't just the animals themselves, but also capturing them or making stuff out of them. They should drop some funky stuff, have you guys included the thought of "spotted hyena" leather, etc? Or does the game generate the names itself from the source?

Huh? You can tan the hide of animals by default, unless you give it a certain tag (I can't remember which). You don't have to specify that it can be made into leather goods.

Toady has an item for eggs and feathers, we'll have to wait for that.


...Are there beaks in the game?

I don't think there are any animals who even have beaks in the game who arn't vermin.

Giant Eagles, and Giant Cave Swallows are both possessed of a pretty vicious beak. I don't think they can smell with it though. And birds don't have ears, bizarrely enough. Mind you, animals really only have one sense at the minute.

[Iban]

Actually, you need the [STANDARD_FLESH] (?) tag, otherwise leather produced from the animal will be ungodly heavy.