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[isitanos]

The dev pages state that the next big goal is to have armies working (go read'em if you want to contribute more significantly to this discussion).

However there are many intermediate goals that need to be tackled on the way there, and the question is: which will come fist? I for one, would like to make a strong suggestion for that next one, and to gather your collective opinion: Dwarf Fortress is an awesome game with an even greater potential, no doubt on that. But currently it is really driving me crazy with the suicidal stupidity of dwarves, and I don't think I'm the only one suffering from that.

So the question is open: what framework do we need to ensure the safety of our dwarves? My ideas:

I would like to define safety zones which dwarves don't leave without explicit orders, and/or danger zones which won't generate jobs (such as pick up item or web) without you specifically flagging the item.

Also, a dwarf tracking mode would be imho a priority, so we can follow them around more easily, and save them from themselves if they're heading toward a bloodthirsty ultra-fast giant bat.

Lastly, we need the ability to get more detail on their job target and to zoom to it. So if even with a whole security system in place they still want to go pick up something dangerous, we can instantly locate the item and forbid it.

We need to explore the whole topic thoroughly, so go ahead and post your safety ideas! If you'd rather propose another intermediate goal, please start your own thread.

[Cajoes]

Hard hats.
Flotation devices.
Oven mittens.
Non-slip boots.
Fireproof aprons.
Elephant spray.

Watchmen/sentry dwarves.
Alarm systems.
Canarys.
Safety rails.

Safety consultant dwarf...

But dwarven safety ultimately falls onto the player, no?

[isitanos]

quote:Originally posted by Cajoes:
<STRONG>
...
Elephant spray.
...
But dwarven safety ultimately falls onto the player, no?</STRONG>

  Precisely, I think the player needs more tools to achieve this dwarven safety. Elephant spray sounds useful, though!

[Armok]

What exactly do you put in a elephant spray? Methane? Cyanide? Chlorine?  :confused:

[Tahin]

Maybe it's not designed to repel elephants, but it in fact contains elephants in a convenient aerosol spray? Kind of like mace, but hurts a hell of a lot more.

[Cajoes]

Lead.

A simple lead spray with a nitrocellulose delivery system.

Very environmentally friendly.

Ooh maybe some warning signs for those pesky muddy bloodstained slippery floors.

[Nite/m4re]

How about... Carp spray?

[Cajoes]

Don't be silly, fish have no olfaction senses
*wikis*
Oh, they do.. My bad.

Just.. rig some nets to keep them away from your waters in the meantime.

[Reign on your Parade]

But where would we get all the funny stories from?

[Buggy]

Edited...

[ November 19, 2007: Message edited by: Buggy ]

[Mylon]

I would like to see some means of getting military dwarves to work as a team.  This, "I'm going to go get a drink now, okay, now I'm going to sleep" stuff means if you tell your dwarves to go out and attack the goblin siegers, they're going to die one at a time to massive arrow fire.  You can't get them to form a line and advance and perform a nice firing squad to shoot back.  At least, not with my experience.

[Lightning4]

I'd like my dwarves to stop standing on floors/stairs they're deconstructing, while that floor is teetering on the edge of a 10 z-level drop onto sharp pointy rocks surrounded by skeletal cod.

Or digging channels underneath each other, trapping the other guy in a pit.
Or digging a channel when they have two choices where to stand, and they pick the spot to stand that traps them.

[mineditall]

quote:Originally posted by Lightning4:
<STRONG>I'd like my dwarves to stop standing on floors/stairs they're deconstructing, while that floor is teetering on the edge of a 10 z-level drop onto sharp pointy rocks surrounded by skeletal cod.

Or digging channels underneath each other, trapping the other guy in a pit.
Or digging a channel when they have two choices where to stand, and they pick the spot to stand that traps them.</STRONG>

if you can build it without standing on it you can destroy it without standing on it

dwarves arent smart so you have to be smarter than them

as for digging yourself into a corner i understand that problem..
my dwarf also once trapped himself on a cliff i was testing as a falling cavein of 3 layers
little to say before i noticed he was already dead
so i reset and tried again with master dwarvenly intervention placing the final strike where he could not possibly be on the wrong peice of rock

yes the next major increase in game play will be monitored armies attacking outside your fortress
and population checks and balances
meaning of course.. as you play then so do those dwarves humans elves goblins outside the walls of your fps bringing your cpu to its knees every year

although playing adventure mode would be more fun if there was a siege on goblins from the 3 other races at the same time
i dont think it would make much of a difference if you utterly destroyed all the forces of the planet and tried single handedly to recreate it all over again with your super rich and deeply dug fortress

[mickel]

If you can make the dwarves aware of each other, a lot will have been gained. Almost all of my deaths aren't from dwarves doing colossally stupid things to themselves, but to others. Choosing to open a bridge while there are dwarves still on it (but before the goblins get there), digging a channel under another dwarf, deconstructing the floor under another dwarf, opening a floodgate before the others get away, running away to get a drink and leaving the other guy without protection in the middle of a fight... I'm sure you guys can add and add to the list.

It relies on the dwarves actually being aware of their environment. In the example of the dwarf pulling the lever to open the bridge, the dwarf needs to be aware that pulling the lever opens the bridge, and this will bring death and maiming to whoever is on it. They need to know who is on it, and they need to be able to weigh the consequences of pulling the lever NOW against pulling it five seconds later, or perhaps cancelling the pull.

Of course, this would lead to dwarves having a value for Judgement or Wisdom or something like that, and it would mean that we'd still have hilarious moments when dwarves with fatally low Wisdom were accidentally given an order requiring a great deal of judgement. ("Durr, durr, I'm sure he meant for me to pull this lever to activate the traps whenever I felt like it... Smells like beer pie in the kitchen today, I wonder what's for eating in the kitchen on the other side of the fortress? Dum de dum de dum...")

[isitanos]

I have this fortress with a very complicated terrain layout that includes a chasm opening. Webs appear near the opening, and two of my dwarves died to a giant swallow and giant bat ("DoomLord") trying to get there walking outside. There's no easy way to find the dwarves once they are dead, since the map is large and there seem to be about 20 levels above ground, so it took me a long time to locate the victims. I think they may have had body parts and items spread over several levels, because even after forbidding all items I could find, other dwarves still went suicidal and kept heading that way so they could die a gruesome death too.

Besides I have fights between creatures, and an Iron Man lost a bodypart that must have been considered as valuable, because once again some dwarves headed there to pick up something and got killed. The same happens with merchants getting killed, of course.

Frankly, we need more control on where dwarves can pickup stuff. Another thing that bothers me is dwarves running away from a monster and immediately trying to return in the same direction. Are they scared or not? If they are, they should not be able to get the same job (or pass through the same area, maybe automatically increase the pathfinding value of that region) for some time. If they are not, then why not allow them to try and dash past the monsters if the player tells them to? If it's to pick up the body of a dead comrade, it might be worth it.

Also I agree with Mylon about the military - of course equipping the soldiers with waterskins and rations makes them last longer in the field, but there should be a "forced march" option or something similar that makes them ignore natural needs for a while - for a hefty morale price. I guess they should also get tougher and bear lack of food, sleep and water better with time?