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[SethCreiyd]

Greetings all, newbie here.

Part of a mod I'm working on makes Giants capable of starting civilizations.  A few test worlds yielded some interesting results.*

In most worlds I ran, Giants stayed in caves like Kobolds and generally offended every other sapient race to the point of constant war, which was good and intended.  They always manage to keep civs around until 300 and that makes them a world presence and a potential threat, even if they are forced to stay in their caves.

Now, most of this modding was done when I was somewhat deprived of sleep.  To my surprise, I recently discovered I'd forgot to add the [CAN_CIV] tag to the Giants entry in creature_standard.  Despite this seemingly glaring omission, the Giants have never failed to civ up and fruitfully multiply (and they're a fully violent part of world diplomacy, too).

Some hasty hypotheses as to why this occurs:

- [SEMIMEGABEAST] implies [CAN_CIV]  (doubtful)
- If the entity_default entry names a creature, then that creature has [CAN_CIV] implied
- Some arcane combination of tokens allows them to civ (unlikely)
- They are placed on the map because of their entity_default entry, but they do not found new sites, they can only conquer existing ones and move between their holdings.

I'm guessing the last one.  I'm going to add the [CAN_CIV] tag and see what happens.

Anyone know what am I missing here?

*

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Giants are historical fun.  One notable event took place when the Giants attacked a Gnome town, killed and ate the defenders, and took over.  After a few dozen years, the enslaved Gnomes started killing their oppressors and this appeared to send the Giants into a fratricidal tantrum spiral, but they city managed to survive with a constant influx of migrants.  When I visited with my Bearman wrestler, he was beaten to death by a giant little girl.

[Vester]

It may be the fourth one. [SEMIMEGABEAST] probably doesn't involve can_civving.

Unless you gave them [INTELLIGENT], which implies all cans.

[Mohreb el Yasim]

Hy,
as giants were alredy in the game i think wierd effects can come also from the duplication of entities ... first of all activate the errors for world generation and then you will see where it is come from.

[SethCreiyd]

That's just it.  I can't find the problem.  There's no duped-entry weirdness.  Everything worked as intended despite the missing tag.  Other than an impoverished word bank, my error log is clean.

Edit: sorry, misread you; I didn't make a new creature entry for Giants, I modded the old one.

Regarding Giant intelligence, they had only [SLOW_LEARNER] and [CAN_SPEAK].

I've run a few worlds now and haven't noticed any obvious differences that adding the [CAN_CIV] token has caused.  It may have implications for their behavior in Fortress Mode; I haven't tested this yet.

[Vester]

Maybe [CAN_SPEAK] or [CAN_LEARN]/[SLOW_LEARNER] act like [CAN_CIV] as long as there's an entity entry?

Or...

I fear to say it, but...

Maybe [CAN_CIV] has no real function?

[SethCreiyd]

Looking at the vanilla setup, Kobolds have [CAN_CIV] but not [CAN_SPEAK], just [UTTERANCES] instead.  The other default civ-worthy creatures all have [INTELLIGENT].

You could be right that [CAN_SPEAK] implies [CAN_CIV], so the latter may be of use to critters like Kobolds who can't talk but still need to make civs.  I'll try to verify this.

[Stargrasper]

Wouldn't the easiest way to test this be to take [CAN_CIV] away from the default civs and see what happens?  Then randomly play with the tags we've been discussing to see if they imply [CAN_CIV] or if the tag technically does nothing.

[Untelligent]

I believe the [CAN_CIV] tag prevents creatures from spawning normally.

[AtomicPaperclip]

I believe the [CAN_CIV] tag prevents creatures from spawning normally.

So if we take that away could we have elves randomly walk onto our maps?

_{into cage traps}

[Untelligent]

So if we take that away could we have elves randomly walk onto our maps?

...


I'd guessed that this could possibly happen (else why the tag, as we've noticed it seems to do little else), and I'd been thinking about a kobold-like race or two for my upcoming mod that could also randomly walk onto your map, but I never put 2 and 2 together and thought about using the CAN_CIV tag for that thing and just considered making a seperate creature for that. Thanks for the insight. =D


Now someone needs to test this.

[labouts]

Just tried it out. [CAN_CIV] doesn't seem to do anything interesting. Creature with no tags in the intelligent group still form civs if they have an entity defined and those without entities with [CAN_CIV] don't form civs. I didn't see any different behavior in creatures with only [CAN_SPEAK] and [CAN_LEARN] as long as the entity is defined.
As a side note, if the controlled civ's members can't speak then you can mark them for slaughter in fortress mode.

[LegoLord]

I believe the [CAN_CIV] tag prevents creatures from spawning normally.

No.  At least that's not the only thing, if it is.  It's primarily the lack of spawn-biome tags on the creature entries.  Maybe can-civ has something to do with it as well, but I doubt it.

[Deon]

So if we take that away could we have elves randomly walk onto our maps?

...


I'd guessed that this could possibly happen (else why the tag, as we've noticed it seems to do little else), and I'd been thinking about a kobold-like race or two for my upcoming mod that could also randomly walk onto your map, but I never put 2 and 2 together and thought about using the CAN_CIV tag for that thing and just considered making a seperate creature for that. Thanks for the insight. =D


Now someone needs to test this.

If you add biomes to intelligent craetures, they start to "normally walk", but they are naked and not related to any entity.

[Untelligent]

I believe the [CAN_CIV] tag prevents creatures from spawning normally.

No.  At least that's not the only thing, if it is.  It's primarily the lack of spawn-biome tags on the creature entries.  Maybe can-civ has something to do with it as well, but I doubt it.

Did you actually test this?

I just put [CAN_CIV] on all temperate creatures and embarked in some hills. I'm about half a month in and no wild critters have showed up yet; without doing something like this they usually arrive in the first day or two.


Next up is removing [CAN_CIV] from Elves, give them a biome, make them curiousbeasts, and see if they try to yoink my starting booze.

EDIT: civ creatures won't spawn, even without [CAN_CIV] and with a biome tag. Oh well.

[3]

That's probably because you didn't give them LARGE_ROAMING.