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[Lord Dullard]

I thought it was worth posting this in here, since it's related subject matter:

Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9621

The Measure of America report also documents the widening social gulf within the United States, particularly in geographical terms, as it breaks down the census statistics to provide a table ranking all 50 states and all 438 congressional districts. The report greatly understates the degree of income inequality since the US economic census counts only wage and salary income, leaving out dividends, interest, capital gains and business profit, the principal forms of income for the upper class. But even with these limitations, the findings are devastating.

The executive summary of the report notes that “the average income of the top fifth of US households in 2006 was almost 15 times that of those in the lowest fifth—or $168,170 versus $11,352.” The top one percent of households possesses at least one third of the national wealth, while the bottom 60 percent possess just 4 percent of the total.

The authors observe: “Growing inequality in income distribution and wealth raises a profound question for Americans: Can the uniquely middle-class nation that emerged in the twentieth century survive into the twenty-first century? Or is it fracturing into a land of great extremes?” While not drawing any conclusion, they admit, “the answers to these questions will determine ... the future of America.”

There are staggering disparities in income, health care and educational opportunities from state to state, between urban and rural areas, and between relatively well-off areas like the Northeast and Pacific Coast and impoverished areas like much of the South and the Appalachian region.

[Muz]

Oh, I'm bookmarking this thread as stuff about economics/civilization fail I want to read when I have free time

[Zai]

"I'll vote for a major candidate so I don't lose"

Because democracy is all about choosing the winner and not who or what is right for the region at that point in time.

[Jude]

On the one hand, every generation thinks they are in the decline that will bring the fall of civilization as we know it.

On the other hand, all empires have to fall sometime. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, and would not mind living in a country that everybody else in the world doesn't hate for stepping all over their toes and supporting their horrendous dictators.

[Pwnzerfaust]

On the one hand, every generation thinks they are in the decline that will bring the fall of civilization as we know it.

On the other hand, all empires have to fall sometime. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, and would not mind living in a country that everybody else in the world doesn't hate for stepping all over their toes and supporting their horrendous dictators.

At least, they don't do those things yet. If they became the sole superpower, I'd bet you all my possessions they'd be just as bad, or worse, than the US as the bullies of the world.

[Blacken]

On the other hand, all empires have to fall sometime. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, and would not mind living in a country that everybody else in the world doesn't hate for stepping all over their toes and supporting their horrendous dictators.

I should hope this is sarcasm, because as far as superpowers go, the U.S. has been pretty fucking moderate in its history. China shows no tendencies to the same. Somebody has to be at the top of the heap; when you have a decent reason for it to be anyone besides us I'll be happy to hear it.

But "oh no they haaaaate us!" is not a reason to change policy. I'm always sourly amused that the loudest complainants are the ones who've had their fat saved from the frying pan by that American involvement they decry today.

[Jude]

On the one hand, every generation thinks they are in the decline that will bring the fall of civilization as we know it.

On the other hand, all empires have to fall sometime. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, and would not mind living in a country that everybody else in the world doesn't hate for stepping all over their toes and supporting their horrendous dictators.

At least, they don't do those things yet. If they became the sole superpower, I'd bet you all my possessions they'd be just as bad, or worse, than the US as the bullies of the world.

Oh absolutely. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have to be FROM the superpower doing all that bullying and I could just be chill when travelling like somebody from Canada or Turkey or some other laid back country

I should hope this is sarcasm, because as far as superpowers go, the U.S. has been pretty fucking moderate in its history

How does being less bad than the others excuse anything

But "oh no they haaaaate us!" is not a reason to change policy.

Yeah but having policies that give people legitimate reasons to hate us is

Such as supporting oppressive governments or overthrowing legitimate ones to name just a few

I'm always sourly amused that the loudest complainants are the ones who've had their fat saved from the frying pan by that American involvement they decry today.

I'm pretty sure you just made that up cause I'm not sure who you hear "the loudest complaints" from

[Blacken]

On the one hand, every generation thinks they are in the decline that will bring the fall of civilization as we know it.

On the other hand, all empires have to fall sometime. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, and would not mind living in a country that everybody else in the world doesn't hate for stepping all over their toes and supporting their horrendous dictators.

At least, they don't do those things yet. If they became the sole superpower, I'd bet you all my possessions they'd be just as bad, or worse, than the US as the bullies of the world.

Oh absolutely. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have to be FROM the superpower doing all that bullying and I could just be chill when travelling like somebody from Canada or Turkey or some other laid back country

Is this a joke? That's as inane a reason as any I've heard in a while. Have any idea how much money we give out with no real expectation of ever being paid back? It's not like giving money to the Palestinians or to the Ukraine is something that even really has any secondary benefits to us.

"Bullying." I laughed. Watch less cable news and start reading about what the United States actually does. Go look at the history of the Chinese whose lordship you're jerking off over and see if that's really a smart thing to say.

I should hope this is sarcasm, because as far as superpowers go, the U.S. has been pretty fucking moderate in its history

How does being less bad than the others excuse anything

'Cause when the options are us or them, we look like a pretty good option. We act to preserve our position, sure. So does everyone else. We're better at it, and frankly I'm glad we are--because we are the best of all options on the table. "International government" isn't going to happen anytime soon, except under the auspices of the biggest, strongest power in the area. That's us. In our case, it happens to be a positive that while we have our screwups, we tend to do a pretty good job on the whole. Who's going to do it better?

Politics is a nasty business. Crying about it ignores that it's part of the game.

But "oh no they haaaaate us!" is not a reason to change policy.

Yeah but having policies that give people legitimate reasons to hate us is

Such as supporting oppressive governments or overthrowing legitimate ones to name just a few

Dude, look. This is how world politics go and have always gone: a unipolar geopolitical structure is the most stable, and the way you keep it such is the way the Romans and the British did. You have a big, big gun in one hand and a big, big sack of cash in the other. If you play ball, you get the sack of cash. If you don't, you get the business end of the gun.

I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying it works. Mealy-mouthed complaints that it's so terrible offer no solutions. People who get upset that politics is as nasty as it is are probably the people who don't belong in politics. Go sit back and act all horrified while you benefit from the actions of people willing to do what's necessary, it's expected of you.

I'm always sourly amused that the loudest complainants are the ones who've had their fat saved from the frying pan by that American involvement they decry today.

I'm pretty sure you just made that up cause I'm not sure who you hear "the loudest complaints" from[/quote]Then you're not listening very carefully. The biggest bitching consistently comes from Western Europe (who owe us a debt that's unlikely to ever be repaid, and I'm not talking about money). France and Germany have a habit of thumbing their nose at the U.S. just because they can.

[Jude]

Is this a joke? That's as inane a reason as any I've heard in a while.

OK well it's a personal preference not a political statement
I know it makes you get antsy that not everybody loves America being on top of the world but that's the way it is

"Bullying." I laughed. Watch less cable news and start reading about what the United States actually does.

Read any history of the past 60 years that was written by any half-decent neutral author

'Cause when the options are us or them, we look like a pretty good option. We act to preserve our position, sure. So does everyone else. We're better at it, and frankly I'm glad we are--because we are the best of all options on the table. "International government" isn't going to happen anytime soon, except under the auspices of the biggest, strongest power in the area. That's us. Who's going to do it better?

I repeat how does being less bad than Imperial Rome or Soviet Russia excuse us overthrowing governments or installing and supporting oppressive dictators or invading countries that did jack shit to us and occupying them to make sure someone we like is in charge, or bombing countries next to those countries which had nothing to do with the conflict in the first place or

Oh, jerk harder. Look, this is how world politics go and have always gone: a unipolar geopolitical structure is the most stable, and the way you keep it such is the way the Romans and the British did. You have a big, big gun in one hand and a big, big sack of cash in the other. If you play ball, you get the sack of cash. If you don't, you get the business end of the gun.

I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying it works. Mealy-mouthed complaints that it's so terrible offer no solutions.

That is one of the worst lines of reasoning I have ever heard and it can be used, unchanged, to justify slavery, female circumcision, genocide, racism and apartheid, feudalism, dictatorships and any just about any other widely-prevalent historical evil you care to think of

Then you're not listening very carefully. The biggest bitching consistently comes from Western Europe (who owe us a debt that's unlikely to ever be repaid, and I'm not talking about money). France and Germany have a habit of thumbing their nose at the U.S. just because they can.

You think the most hatred of America comes from Western Europe? I'm guessing you haven't ever traveled outside the US then. Hint: the countries that have the most resentment against America are the ones that are suffering directly because of things the US is doing

[nil]

"The US is the most decent and benevolent superpower in the history of the world (by far) and should be commended for it"

and

"The US's wealth and power was built on the backs of a number of innocent peoples, starting with native North Americans, continuing through the victims of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and into modern times with a large chunk of the third world, and therefore deserves much of the flak it catches"

are not at all mutually exclusive. 

[The Architect]

Nil's quite right.

In other news, this thread didn't take long to go exactly where everyone expected it to. Namely into petty bitching. Can't you argue without being personally insulting to your opponent? Try calm, logical arguments instead. Granted it doesn't work for me, as people will read an offensive tone into anything online, but you're both including direct personal insults in every post.

[Lord Dullard]

Locked, as promised. Whatever other qualities B12 may have it is not capable of polite debate.