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[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Dwarves are known throughout lore and video games, and films and movies, as the type of folk who would have been the first to invent something such as a steam engine.
They are not ancient greeks, infact they are of norse mythology, so it makes little to no sense to even bother comparing them for anything other than time periods.

If the dwarves understand water wheels and pumping concepts, theres only so much time until a dwarf notices that that steam blasting off of that fresh layer of obsidian could indeed knock a dwarf clean off his feet, and then realizes it is capable of being harnessed, just like a mighty river.

We're talking about people who are mighty enough to tame dragons, people who are smart enough to forge some of the greatest weapons in lore... and the lore of dwarves have said over and over again, they are able to harness the power of steam.

[G-Flex]

Dwarves are known throughout lore and video games, and films and movies, as the type of folk who would have been the first to invent something such as a steam engine.

Being the first doesn't mean you're several hundred years ahead of the curve, and DF dwarves don't have to be identical to whatever other dwarves you're talking about anyway.

If the dwarves understand water wheels and pumping concepts, theres only so much time until a dwarf notices that that steam blasting off of that fresh layer of obsidian could indeed knock a dwarf clean off his feet, and then realizes it is capable of being harnessed, just like a mighty river.

You could say the exact same thing about real people, who invented waterwheels, screw-pumps, gearing, and complex mechanical things based on them far, far before realizing the potential of a steam engine.

We're talking about people who are mighty enough to tame dragons, people who are smart enough to forge some of the greatest weapons in lore...

"Dwarves are really really cool" isn't an excuse to give them whatever you want.

and the lore of dwarves have said over and over again, they are able to harness the power of steam.

Modern fantasy fiction is also often really bad at worldbuilding. Dwarves being able to build steam engines means they likely have a level of manufacturing capability that's inconsistent with the rest of the fictional world, and even if it's not, what "lore" are you talking about? Warcraft? Dungeons & Dragons? Some other modern fantasy that doesn't even necessarily apply here?

[Eagle0600]

If we're going with lore from outside of DF, then kobolds would be sorcerers and masters of trap-building. They're not. That is not DF kobolds.

If we're going with lore from outside of DF, then elves would be peace-loving, intelligent, and friends to all living things. They're not. That is not DF elves.

If we're going with lore from outside of DF, then yes, dwarves would have steam engines. They don't. That is not DF dwarves.

If it's going in, it's going in as a mega-project-style construction. IF.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Well of course I'm not saying that it should be going against the DF lore, but incase you havent noticed, Stories Grow, Lore expands, and if Toady is planning on putting in a form of steam power, dont be complaining about it.

It's His game, and adding features to it shouldnt be shot down like they are referances to the holocaust.

[G-Flex]

If we're going with lore from outside of DF [...]

Trouble is, you have to ask yourself which lore you're using to begin with.

Gnomes could wind up being anything from little pointy-hatted guys who sit on your lawn to weird creatures in mines made out of living stone to mischievous gremlin-like creatures who build strange machinery, for example.

Pretty much all the fantasy concepts mentioned have varied so much over the decades/centuries that it's kind of foolish to prescribe very many particular concepts as "canonical" for a given creature or concept (not that I'm saying you're doing this).

[Eagle0600]

Where has Toady said he is putting Steam engines in? He hasn't. He doesn't appear to have even mentioned them.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Where has Toady said he is putting Steam engines in? He hasn't. He doesn't appear to have even mentioned them.

I never said he did, I said that if he wants to do whatever he wants to do, he is free to do so, and argueing about what should go in is pointless, as toady is the one in control.

Especially considering this topic is officially off the rails two pages ago, I think we should just end this little discussion.

[Arrkhal]

Some people really don't want poo in the game, some really don't want steam engines.

Clearly, what every fortress needs is a steam-powered sewer system which doubles as a poo cannon.

Also, I'm trying to figure out what kind of technical difficulties there'd be with making iron-nickel alloys.  One guy says the technology to make them didn't exist until the 1800's, but maybe he misspoke.  Nickel wasn't identified until the 1800's, even though it had been smelted by many different cultures as early as 3500 BC, but most of them thought that it was either the same thing as silver, or that it was some type of "white copper."

I can't really think of any reasons you couldn't just mix some nickel into a crucible of molten iron, other than the fact that the nickel would sink to the bottom if you kept the mixture molten long enough.

And nickel is already known by the dwarves in-game to be a different metal than silver and copper, so that argument won't work.  They can also smelt zinc, which is an anachronism.

[G-Flex]

Where has Toady said he is putting Steam engines in? He hasn't. He doesn't appear to have even mentioned them.

He's mentioned that he isn't putting them in, and probably more than once. Even gunpowder is very much an edge-case scenario to him, in that he wants to support it but not in the game's worlds by default.

[Tellemurius]

hold on here people im only talking about metallurgy not about steam engines or gunpowder though maybe later when i make the tread. dwarves in their lore should be able to use zinc in its metallic state but would need the alchemist to find uses for it. damnit i just posted a suggestion for research.

[The13thRonin]

Not to mention it doesn't fit the setting at all. The gun and black powder were invented long before 1400 but you don't see them in the game.

You might in a certain mod in the near-future .

Shh, I didn't say anything .

[Arrkhal]

You quoted the wrong person!  I didn't say that.

I'm also still not sure if there's a valid technological/metallurgical reason that dwarves couldn't make about a 95% iron 5% nickel alloy.  Even if the metals don't mix well, it could be done in small batches with lots of stirring.

[immolo]

You quoted the wrong person!  I didn't say that.

I'm also still not sure if there's a valid technological/metallurgical reason that dwarves couldn't make about a 95% iron 5% nickel alloy.  Even if the metals don't mix well, it could be done in small batches with lots of stirring.

Please read the wikipedia articles about metallurgy. History of ferrous metallurgy is particularly helpful.

[sunshaker]

Some people really don't want poo in the game, some really don't want steam engines.

Clearly, what every fortress needs is a steam-powered sewer system which doubles as a poo cannon.

Also, I'm trying to figure out what kind of technical difficulties there'd be with making iron-nickel alloys.  One guy says the technology to make them didn't exist until the 1800's, but maybe he misspoke.  Nickel wasn't identified until the 1800's, even though it had been smelted by many different cultures as early as 3500 BC, but most of them thought that it was either the same thing as silver, or that it was some type of "white copper."

I can't really think of any reasons you couldn't just mix some nickel into a crucible of molten iron, other than the fact that the nickel would sink to the bottom if you kept the mixture molten long enough.

And nickel is already known by the dwarves in-game to be a different metal than silver and copper, so that argument won't work.  They can also smelt zinc, which is an anachronism.

I think the big thing is that they didn't have molten iron then. To get molten iron you need a blast furnace (England 1491, mainland Europe a few years earlier*). Up until that point all iron and steel refining was done via bloomeries (an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDy1jx6mLgs). Now some could argue that dwarves know a little more about metal, and some could argue that they have pig iron so they must have blast furnaces (a poorly operated bloomery will make cast iron), but you never see the option "Cast (metal) (object)" in the game, it is always forge. Further with the invention of blast furnaces iron production increases in size (in game terms you should be making 5 or 10 bars at a time instead of just one) and the process of making iron is reversed (blast furnaces make pig iron which is further refined into wrought iron and steel, you don't start with iron and work your way up).

Iron melting point 1538 °C, 2800 °F, nickel melting point 1453 °C, 2651 °F, Copper melting point 1084.62 °C, 1984.32 °F, Gold melting point 1064.18 °C, 1947.52 °F, Silver melting point 961.78 °C, 1763.2 °F.

---

* Ok yes the Chinese had them from about 500 BCE and could make cast iron tools, they couldn't make wrought iron in the blast furnace until about 200 CE.

[Arrkhal]

* Ok yes the Chinese had them from about 500 BCE and could make cast iron tools, they couldn't make wrought iron in the blast furnace until about 200 CE.

It does seem as though dwarves follow Chinese steelmaking more closely than European.  It's a combination of iron and pig iron, which is pretty similar to how some Chinese smiths made steel between about 100 BC and 100 AD (using a combination of wrought and cast iron, melted in a crucible).  And yes, as you mentioned, they had a workable blast furnace by about 200 AD.

The Indians had very advanced, glass-fluxed crucible steel at least by 200 AD, possibly as early as 300 BC.

And the dwarven use of flux definitely implies that the dwarves are making some type of crucible steel.

Also, the forge/cast semantics are pretty meaningless since it also applies to copper-based stuff.  Bronze weapons were nearly always cast, then cold-worked, but it doesn't say "cast and cold-work bronze short sword" either.

And on the semantics angle, recycled items, regardless of material, are marked for "melting," not for "forge-welding into a billet."

Magma isn't hot enough to melt iron, but Toady has said that will be addressed in the next version.

So if a complete melt and historical human ignorance of nickel are the main reasons to not have iron-nickel alloys, then the dwarves at least could logically have them.