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[HatfieldCW]

I don't much like the way legendary status works right now.  I've actually started to reduce my specialization so that I don't end up with two legendary carpenters/masons/bonecarvers/cooks/brewers/etc. after a couple years, because it bothers me that a legendary worker can produce more goods of a higher quality that four mediocre ones.  I can see the beds being better, or getting made faster, but not both.

How about this:  A worker, under normal circumstances, can use his ability to fill orders faster and better, but there's a cap on quality, at "Finely Crafted".  If you want to make superior,  exceptional or masterful works, then the job has to be submitted to a master crafter, and just having a lot of XP isn't enough.  In order to make a citizen into a "Master Mason" and get those great doors, you have to find a guy who's skill is at least "Great" and promote him to the role, like a Sheriff.  Once he's got the sash on, he needs to have a workshop that only he is allowed to use, a study, and a cabinet (just off the top of my head).  The master's shop will not queue tasks from the task manager, you have to specifically request that he do the job, and jobs from the master's shop take way longer than a normal shop, like ten times as long.  As he skills up, he'll be more likely to produce the exceptional or masterful works, but his pace will not improve.  Additionally, his skill-ups will cause him to undergo promotions, so he'll require a fancier study, maybe some more furniture or a private dining room to keep him happy.  Once you have a level 20 omega-carpenter, he'll need quarters rivaling the Hammerer's, with a tomb and a sweet bedroom and the whole nine yards.

That way, you can train up an assembly line that can pound out +Obsidian Throne+s like clockwork, but a better piece of work will require an expert in a  more personalized environment, and it'll take more than some decent booze and a waterfall to keep him ecstatic.  An added benefit of this would be the ability to custom-order a "good" item, separate from the industrial machine of the fort, and that one fancy coffin will be produced promptly and well.

[Rotten]

To tell the truth, though I haven't been here really long, I'm not such a great fan of this idea. A big part of this game (in my opinion) is getting to know your dwarves better, coming up with little stories about them etc etc. When you turn the legendaries (spelling?) into nobles, well, there IS a reason most people drown nobles in magma. They're downright annoying.

On a more mechanics note, I don't see why a legendary carpenter cant still be used to quickly churn out low-quality beds for the masses. I agree that he shouldn't be able to churn out high-quality beds at that pace, but making him require a separate shop and a massive amount of micro-management to get those 10 masterwork beds to please your dwarves just doesn't seem right. IMO, an alternative way to do this would be to be able to set min-max quality levels on workshops, and assign them to specific dwarves.

I hope I didn't offend you or anything, I agree with your complaint, but the fix seems a little...off to me.

[The Architect]

How about another proposal, then? This is one I've made before.

In reality, you can dictate a commission to a craftsman and he will spend the time required to create an object of the specified quality. He doesn't randomly produce oodles of objects that may or may not make proper use of the materials he has invested in the project.

What I propose is that you have an option to use the current system, or a system in which you can dictate the level of craftsmanship your dwarves will exhibit. Keep in mind when reading this proposal that the experience system should remain the same, as that will maintain balance perfectly. In the new system, you could dictate the quality of the crafts created by a job, and a craftsman would either be able to complete the job or unable (if he were not skilled enough). We can control cancellations via skill level permissions. The time it takes a dwarf to complete a job would depend on the quality of the item required and the skill of the dwarf.

What this boils down to is that if you churn out tons of low-quality items, your dwarves will gain xp quickly but you will have ...tons of low quality items. Or you could have your dwarves work on better quality items, thus not wasting your (sometimes very precious) materials, gaining xp slowly and producing slowly. If you have a master or better armorer, he should be able to intentionally make masterwork armor and never produce crap. If he is only a Master, it should take him freakin' forever. A Legendary+5 should be rather fast, as now.

This suggestion will fix all of the balance issues that are bugging you, and also some extras that are bugging me: why do my supposedly insanely skilled workers WASTE MY MATERIALS? Why can't an engraver take more time and do a job right? Yes, that was a two-sentence rant. But it's a VERY upsetting trend, worthy of long rants.

[HatfieldCW]

there IS a reason most people drown nobles in magma. They're downright annoying.

Sheriffs never make bizarre demands or mandates, and neither should high-end manufacturers.  No need to drown them in magma, since if it becomes inconvenient to keep that Legendary +4 Craftsdwarf in the manner to which he's accustomed, you just take away his title and let him go back to work making big stacks of +Goblin Bone Bolts+ three times faster than anyone else does, and there's no upkeep there. The title and fancy digs would just be required if you want him to be able to bring all his skill to bear on specific tasks, resulting in higher quality and lower output.

On a more mechanics note, I don't see why a legendary carpenter cant still be used to quickly churn out low-quality beds for the masses. I agree that he shouldn't be able to churn out high-quality beds at that pace,

Then we're in agreement on that point.  I was hoping to describe a system that would compel the player to choose between a one-dwarf manufacturing plant and an elite artisan, rather than the current system, which allows me to train one citizen to be both at the same time.

IMO, an alternative way to do this would be to be able to set min-max quality levels on workshops, and assign them to specific dwarves.

I like this, it's the core of my idea, but it seems to me that it would just introduce a little paperwork before going right back to one guy making a bajillion top-quality goods per hour.  The key difference between what you said right there and what I said above is the time penalty I recommend and the interface shenanigans that I (perhaps unnecessarily) included.

I hope I didn't offend you or anything, I agree with your complaint, but the fix seems a little...off to me.

Not in the slightest, I think you've got a solid grasp on the issue and I value your thoughtful reply.

[HatfieldCW]

...(a proposed economy between quality and skill, based on player-defined work orders)...

Man, I love this idea, but I think it would fit better in a sort of "commission" system, where we could describe the output that we want and then have the fortress, as a community, fulfill our request to the best of its ability.  Maybe a Master Engraver would spend two whole seasons going back to the same wall tile and struggling with how best to produce a masterwork engraving on it.

It's pretty much what I had in mind when I described the "officer" status of the expert artisans.  I envision a dwarf getting the order to make a really spectacular coffin, and then going into his study, spreading some plans out on the table, doing some sketches, crumpling them up and throwing them on the ground, going over to the statue garden, having a drink with his mates, and finally coming up with a really great design that he can use to fill the order.  Then he gets his rock, takes it to the workshop and spends a week working on it off and on between drinking binges and naps before placing the finished product in the stockpile.

[The Architect]

Hah, well, while realistic that might be a little over the top. It takes long enough to get simple tasks done now when the FPS drops in a major fort. In short, we have to consider game mechanics and utility before ultimate realism in this case. I think some jobs need to have their times and values adjusted. Glass windows are pretty simple to mass-produce, and if you really know what you are doing you will have a consistent product (though wavy, due to the technology). But statues, for example, need time and concentration. A masterwork statue shouldn't be churned out in a day, and it should have a much higher value than it does now.

[Pilsu]

I don't really see why a good craftsman would do a shitty job just because he doesn't have some fancy position. I do like the notion of reducing working speed, skill really should have heavy diminishing returns when it comes to that

I also oppose any auto-masterwork orders. That adamantine might be precious but time investment doesn't guarantee anything. Exceptional work is often the only thing you can manage with a given batch of material. I think we should move away from the 'maxed out everything' attitude in general. Ordering a dwarf to take special care with crafting could grant a small quality bonus though, at least for production orders. Gets a bit iffier with engraving walls, you don't exactly rush that


Higher social status and the resulting demands should be reflect in ways beyond just noble positions

[The Architect]

Well, there is a provision in the idea to let your workers continue to use the old system, which is already programmed in. I can't see how you could think a Legendary worker would fail to produce a masterwork every time, though. Think of any legendary painter. I mean really legendary, men like Van Gogh and Reniore come to mind. Once their skills were refined, they always produced a work of the highest quality. It took time, but they didn't half-ass it. They worked slowly and carefully until they got it right.

A master armorer, weaponsmith or practitioner of any craftsman's trade is the same: they do it once, they do it carefully, and they do it right. There's a legendary carpenter (literally, he's a legend in the carpentry business) that had a motto: measure once, cut once. He didn't screw up, period. One of his apprentices has been an older friend since I was born, and explained to me that a normal carpenter always measures twice, but this man had rules. If you really know what you're doing, if you're a professional and you do things right, you do them once and you don't waste your material or your time.

Any legendary craftsman in DF should be the same. They should never waste their materials nor time. That said, you can't produce a masterful piece of furniture in less than a week with a fully staffed shop, so many of the times in DF seem off to me. I don't know much about blacksmithing, but I can't imagine it takes less than several days to forge a sword, and much longer to properly forge a hammer or mace with the right temper.

[Pilsu]

Legendary is anything but right now. The +whatever ranks would need to be cut and skill progression be reworked to something more meaningful for that to work. Otherwise you have a Van Gogh in every fort and your otherwise good point melts into a puddle of shameful goo. That particular subject has been talked to death though

I don't really see how someone can work adamantine for the first time ever and come up with perfect craftsmanship though

[ungulateman]

^ He said earlier that this wold only be an option for Great or higher ranked dwarves. So Dabbling Strand Extractors aren't pulling masterpieces out of their dwarven asses anytime soon.

[The Architect]

The dwarves are legendary craftsmen as a race. Think of their artifacts: EVERY dwarf is a Van Gogh waiting to bloom in some skill.

Anyone who has any aptitude and puts the right amount of practice into a craft can become truly a master at it, unless they have a physical restriction.