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[Deon]

I had no problems with 300+ reactions, so it should be ok. Another myth?

[sunshaker]

I had no problems with 300+ reactions, so it should be ok. Another myth?

While I don't have 300+ (maybe 100 if I really try) I've never had a problem with too many reactions, I do recall someone else saying that the number of reactions per file was limited (but again I've never hit that limit). Are all your reactions in one file or did you spread them out? I've spread them out as it is easier to keep track of them (plant ones there, metal over there, pottery here, etc.).

[NecroRebel]

I'm not doing the fixes myself just yet, I was just pointing out how to do the fixes I have planned for... Well, sometime. When I get to doing it, I'll probably also add in the currently-missing leathers, especially aquatic animals, while I'm editing. Then again, adding those would break save compatibility and require a regen while the currently-planned fixes would not.

The "generic" leather idea is one that would save a lot of effort, but I think it makes things kind of ugly ingame. Most everything else preserves the material they were made out of down to the animal they came from, so why shouldn't hide bedding? Besides, as I said before I had considered doing something like this with one reaction to take any leather to spit out a common-type leather, like cow, bed and another few reactions specifically for unicorns, sasquatches, elephants, fire imps, dragons, hydras, and maybe a couple others, but eventually decided against it.

I've come to believe that the reaction limit is either a myth in its entirety or comes specifically from a single reaction file. I first heard of the limit as it related to the CivForge mod's creator claiming that he was almost out of reactions, but he put all of his modded reactions into reaction_standard. Dig Deeper probably has nearly as many custom reactions, but has a second reaction_standard_extended file, and in this mod I've made both cat leather beds and two-humped camel leather beds, which are at the opposite ends of the reaction file, so I've not hit the limit myself.

[Eagle0600]

Also, "20% chance" doesn't mean 1 in every 5. It means a one-in-five chance each time. Which means, if you get lucky, your could get five in a row. Alternatively, you could get none.

[NecroRebel]

Also, "20% chance" doesn't mean 1 in every 5. It means a one-in-five chance each time. Which means, if you get lucky, your could get five in a row. Alternatively, you could get none.

Wrong. This has been tested and retested many times; raw reactions literally give a percentage of a complete item every time, not a %chance of it occuring. Run a 20% of a leather bed reaction 4 times in one smelter, you'll get none, no matter how many smelters you build and run the reaction 4 times, but every fifth time you will get one.

Now, ores (such as tetrahedrite) are different. A 20% ore actually does have a 20% chance of giving you a bar of the metal the ore is an ore of (in tetrahedrite's case, silver). This difference between the results of the [METAL_ORE:] tag in the matglosses and the results of the [PRODUCT: line in the reaction files confuses many people, including, apparently, yourself.



It's not really that hard to test, though. Make a reaction that takes no resources or fuel and has a product line like [PRODUCT:99:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]. Then, go into a world, build a smelter, run the reaction once, then deconstruct the smelter. By your idea, you'd have to be incredibly unlucky to not get a copper bar from that, but you won't get one. then, repeat the process until you're satisfied that you're not just happening to hit the 1% chance of no bar every time, repeatedly building, reacting at, and deconstructing a smelter. Then, build one smelter and run the reaction exactly 101 times, seeing then that you get 1 bar the second through hundredth times you run it, but none the first or hundred-and-first, no matter how many smelters you run it at (though of course disproving the "reactions are %chances" idea is easier than proving the "reactions are %s of an item" idea).

[slink]

Also, "20% chance" doesn't mean 1 in every 5. It means a one-in-five chance each time. Which means, if you get lucky, your could get five in a row. Alternatively, you could get none.

Wrong. This has been tested and retested many times; raw reactions literally give a percentage of a complete item every time, not a %chance of it occuring. Run a 20% of a leather bed reaction 4 times in one smelter, you'll get none, no matter how many smelters you build and run the reaction 4 times, but every fifth time you will get one.

Now, ores (such as tetrahedrite) are different. A 20% ore actually does have a 20% chance of giving you a bar of the metal the ore is an ore of (in tetrahedrite's case, silver). This difference between the results of the [METAL_ORE:] tag in the matglosses and the results of the [PRODUCT: line in the reaction files confuses many people, including, apparently, yourself.



It's not really that hard to test, though. Make a reaction that takes no resources or fuel and has a product line like [PRODUCT:99:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]. Then, go into a world, build a smelter, run the reaction once, then deconstruct the smelter. By your idea, you'd have to be incredibly unlucky to not get a copper bar from that, but you won't get one. then, repeat the process until you're satisfied that you're not just happening to hit the 1% chance of no bar every time, repeatedly building, reacting at, and deconstructing a smelter. Then, build one smelter and run the reaction exactly 101 times, seeing then that you get 1 bar the second through hundredth times you run it, but none the first or hundred-and-first, no matter how many smelters you run it at (though of course disproving the "reactions are %chances" idea is easier than proving the "reactions are %s of an item" idea).

Where, please, are the test results for this?  I only found one, and it supports the percentage chance rather than the percentage completion, for reactions.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=22759.msg250540#msg250540

I'd really like to know the correct answer. 

[NecroRebel]

I just ran a quick test myself with a [PRODUCT:75:1] copper bar reaction. Just as I predicted, all ten smelters produced none the first reaction I ran in them and one the next 3.

However, I of course cannot explain Untelligent's results in that other thread beyond suggesting that a mistake occured, which I cannot prove. My results, annoyingly enough, are not out of line with the probability theory, though more than a little improbable. I am now uncertain which is correct.


I'm sure I've seen other people claiming to have run a test on this matter and come up with the percentage-completion result, but I may simply be mistaken on that point as well, and anyone I saw might have simply gotten those results due to a fluke in probability. Regardless, I remain unconvinced at the moment.

[sunshaker]

maybe a multiple product reaction, no reagent, clean install

1 bar of type a at 75
1 bar of type b at 75
1 bar of type c at 50
1 bar of type d at 34
1 bar of type e at 25

run the reaction 10 times if it is progressive you will have predictable results
a will have 7 bars
b will have 7 bars
c will have 5 bars
d will have 3 bars
e will have 2 bars
run it through the manager so you will get it 10 times without error.
destroy smelter, build new smelter in a new location, repeat test compare results.

[slink]

Okay, I tried it.  Not a clean install, though.  I used an established fortress so I could count on everything being in working order.  The reactions made stones that were not present on the map.

[PRODUCT:75:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:BASALT]
[PRODUCT:75:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:TALC]
[PRODUCT:50:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:OBSIDIAN]
[PRODUCT:34:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:PEAT_CHUNKS]
[PRODUCT:25:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:MUDSTONE]

I queued 10 of them through the smelter and watched as they were completed all in one session by the Dungeon Master.

basalt = 8
talc = 8
obsidian = 5
peat chunks = 1
mudstone = 4

I had the smelter dismantled, and rebuilt.  Once again, the Dungeon Master completed the set of 10 all in one session.

basalt = 16
talc = 16
obsidian = 12
peat chunks = 3
mudstone = 5

Adjusted from the first set, that becomes as follows.

basalt = 8
talc = 8
obsidian = 7
peat chunks = 2
mudstone = 1

Summary:

75:8,8
75:8,8
50:5,7
34:1,2
25:4,1

Edit: done with 40d

[NecroRebel]

Okay, I tried it.  Not a clean install, though.  I used an established fortress so I could count on everything being in working order.  The reactions made stones that were not present on the map.

-snip-

Huh. Interesting. I guess that means that my test was a fluke. Which is unfortunate, because several times I have told people that the percentage-completion model was the correct one, which means that I've been unwittingly spreading misinformation, which is always bad 

This is also unfortunate because I had wanted to change this mod produce one-and-a-fraction beds for many of the creatures sometime this weekend, but this is impossible to do in the probability model. I don't think making a full bed and having a chance of creating another full bed is quite what I had in mind; I wanted to model using scraps to make a second bed, but having second beds randomly appear doesn't really fit that.

[The Architect]

Versions? Cmon people.

[sunshaker]

Huh. Interesting. I guess that means that my test was a fluke. Which is unfortunate, because several times I have told people that the percentage-completion model was the correct one, which means that I've been unwittingly spreading misinformation, which is always bad 

This is also unfortunate because I had wanted to change this mod produce one-and-a-fraction beds for many of the creatures sometime this weekend, but this is impossible to do in the probability model. I don't think making a full bed and having a chance of creating another full bed is quite what I had in mind; I wanted to model using scraps to make a second bed, but having second beds randomly appear doesn't really fit that.

It means that my one reaction is going to need the % chances of something happening boosted (mercury metal recovery from slag). *shrug* Not the end of the world.

Maybe have the reaction make [PRODUCT:25:1:SKIN_TANNED:NO_SUBTYPE:LEATHER:MIXED_LEATHER] from the mythical MIXED_LEATHER beast (which doesn't spawn anywhere) and use them to make mixed leather goods.

[slink]

Okay, I tried it.  Not a clean install, though.  I used an established fortress so I could count on everything being in working order.  The reactions made stones that were not present on the map.

-snip-

Huh. Interesting. I guess that means that my test was a fluke. Which is unfortunate, because several times I have told people that the percentage-completion model was the correct one, which means that I've been unwittingly spreading misinformation, which is always bad 

This is also unfortunate because I had wanted to change this mod produce one-and-a-fraction beds for many of the creatures sometime this weekend, but this is impossible to do in the probability model. I don't think making a full bed and having a chance of creating another full bed is quite what I had in mind; I wanted to model using scraps to make a second bed, but having second beds randomly appear doesn't really fit that.

I, too, was basing the reactions in my mod on the completion model rather than on the probability model.  I was startled to read that the METAL_ORE method was based on probability, and I was hoping it was not the case for the reactions method because I didn't want my material balances random.  That is why I searched for more information.  I am using 40d, which should yield the same results as 40d# since the changes are supposed to have been in the graphical interface and not in the basic programming of the game. 

It would be nice if some other people would try the experiment.  It is even possible that the results are different if the Administrator's queue is used.  I read someplace today that the Administrator's queue will look in barrels for materials for use at the smelter, while the smelter queue most definitely does not.  I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is true then others things may also be different.

[NecroRebel]

So it turns out that there was something good to the probability thing after all, namely that the "scrap" method I've resorted to is about two dozen times faster than what I would've had to do if I had made every creature make a fractional part of a whole bed of their own material each time.

So, there's a small new version up. It breaks save compatibility, and I'm still unsure if I like the "scrap leather bed"s it makes, so I may still end up changing it back, but overall it seems fine so far. At the very least, it works.

[Deon]

Well, I've just tested it too and I confirm Slink's information. Moreover, it's not a simple "chance". It's a "chance based on number of attempts in the same smelter". Probably that's why people got an idea about completion %.

I've noted that with "25%" output chance I get things on 3rd reaction more often than on 4th, but I didn't manage to get it on 5th or 6th reaction at all during multiple tries in the same smelter. However if I do it in 2 smelters simulationesly (1st attempt in smelter one, 2nd attempt in smelter 2) I've managed to get the product on 6th and even 7th reaction only, because it looks like chances are "accumulating" or something.

There must be some formula for this chance, which works in each smelter. I think we should ask Toady if we want to know better.