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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2842161 times)

Karlito

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19740 on: May 02, 2020, 06:56:32 pm »

Just noticed something. My laser's tracking speed should be based on my ship's speed, but it doesn't seem to go under 4000 km/s. Even at a speed of 1, the tracking speed is 4000, at a speed of above 4000, the tracking speed matches that. Is this a bug? A feature? Does it translate into combat?

I believe that's how it worked in VB6 too. Your guns always have a minimum tracking speed based on your firecontrol tech.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19741 on: May 02, 2020, 08:56:33 pm »

Tell me if my reasoning for how to build sensors is wrong or not:

Active sensors should be built to be your weapon's maximum range plus expected travel time per 5 seconds, for maximized range.

Since I don't have missile weapons yet, and my resolution 1 active sensors for missile defense covers my larger laser's max range. I don't need anything other than that active sensor, and can save long range detection for large thermals and EM sensors.

AKA: long range active sensors aren't worth building.
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Shooer

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19742 on: May 02, 2020, 09:05:45 pm »

I build large range actives because even at low tech level a large active sensor can see further than passives, and more accurately.

Also provide more information.  Much more useful information.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19743 on: May 02, 2020, 09:32:09 pm »

I build large range actives because even at low tech level a large active sensor can see further than passives, and more accurately.

Also provide more information.  Much more useful information.

Surely there has to be SOME downside to active sensors. If they can just detect everything at a further range, then why have thermal and EM sensors?


Also, first serious combat ship since I stopped playing years ago. Did I forget anything?

Quote
Lance class Frigate (P)      16,083 tons       411 Crew       2,547.5 BP       TCS 322    TH 1,800    EM 0
5595 km/s      Armour 4-56       Shields 0-0       HTK 149      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 7      PPV 44.06
Maint Life 3.60 Years     MSP 1,492    AFR 296%    IFR 4.1%    1YR 177    5YR 2,658    Max Repair 204.8 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP180.00 (10)    Power 1800.0    Fuel Use 176.09%    Signature 180.00    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 3,150,000 Litres    Range 20 billion km (41 days at full power)

25.00cm Spinal C4 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5,595 km/s     Power 16-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 20        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Twin 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 160,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Beam Fire Control R256-TS16000 (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Beam Fire Control R256-TS5600 (70%) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5,600 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R4-PB20 (5)     Total Power Output 20    Exp 10%
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3-PB20 (4)     Total Power Output 12    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS3-R1 (70%) (1)     GPS 5     Range 3.3m km    MCR 356.1k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
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Madman198237

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19744 on: May 02, 2020, 09:38:31 pm »

Using active sensors usually means anyone in the system can detect you. Passive sensors are, as the name says, passive, and thus cannot be used to detect your ship.
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Ygdrad

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19745 on: May 02, 2020, 10:17:54 pm »

Nice, time to get into the game. I quickly toyed with it years ago and then I heard another version was in the works and waited... and waited, and more or less forgot about it until this thread popped back up.

Now to learn to play the game.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19746 on: May 02, 2020, 10:23:54 pm »

Nice, time to get into the game. I quickly toyed with it years ago and then I heard another version was in the works and waited... and waited, and more or less forgot about it until this thread popped back up.

Now to learn to play the game.

You'll want to bookmark these:

http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=CS_Aurora_Topic_Index

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10666.0
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Ygdrad

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19747 on: May 02, 2020, 10:38:23 pm »

Nice, time to get into the game. I quickly toyed with it years ago and then I heard another version was in the works and waited... and waited, and more or less forgot about it until this thread popped back up.

Now to learn to play the game.

You'll want to bookmark these:

http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=CS_Aurora_Topic_Index

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10666.0

Thanks, I never got too deep into the game and forgot how anything used to work by now so it's all new to me :P
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Culise

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19748 on: May 03, 2020, 02:42:02 am »

EDIT: I've come across a new challenge. My colonies with no minerals want protection, which requires ships, which requires maintenance facilities, which requires certain resources on said planet. Is there a way to say "keep 1000 of mineral X on this colony via mass drivers", or is it best to just make a big commercial maintenance ship and have it resupply when needed?
Assuming you're already delivering the minerals in question, open the Mining tab for that colony, double-click on minerals in question, and set the Reserve amount to the desired threshold (1000, in this case).  This will retain that amount as long as it can, though as AIStar noted, the reserve won't ensure that more minerals are delivered if the colony runs low.  Otherwise, it may be easier to just to drop off maintenance supplies from home every once in a while.

Tell me if my reasoning for how to build sensors is wrong or not:

Active sensors should be built to be your weapon's maximum range plus expected travel time per 5 seconds, for maximized range.

Since I don't have missile weapons yet, and my resolution 1 active sensors for missile defense covers my larger laser's max range. I don't need anything other than that active sensor, and can save long range detection for large thermals and EM sensors.

AKA: long range active sensors aren't worth building.
Corollary: long-range active sensors also provide two additional benefits.

1. Knowledge. Knowing where your enemy is from further out means you can maneuver to either give or avoid battle depending on relative strengths, assuming you also have the speed advantage.

2. Missile tracking.  When firing at missiles specifically, your ships receive additional bonuses based on the length of time you've been tracking them.  These bonuses are dependent on the research tech series "Max Tracking Time for Bonus vs Missiles" under "Sensors and Control Systems," scaling linearly if I recall properly.  As such, it's better to build your anti-missile sensors to cover the necessary distance to maximize this bonus: add extra range to your fire control sensors based on the time before it hits weapons range multiplied by the tracking speed of your anti-missile defenses and/or expected speed of your opponent's missiles (if you have advance intelligence on your enemies due to an unfortunate first contact, these should be related in either case for obvious reasons), and you can try to maximize your accuracy just as your defense systems open fire.  Working from my flawed memory again, this tech also shouldn't require redesigns, so it can be helpful to add some additional tolerance to your anti-missile fire control sensors in order to accommodate future software update packages from home.

This of course contrasts with the big disadvantage noted by Madman: when you turn on a searchlight in a dark room, everyone else can see it.  In fact, if you are radiating and they are not, they can typically see it before you can see them if they have equivalent passive EM sensors.  This may end up becoming another advantage if you're intentionally building a wild weasel.  Large active sensors also require more uridium and incur higher maintenance costs both in failure rates and MSP to repair when compared either to smaller sensors, which may or may not be significant depending on mineral and tonnage constraints.  This is also true when compared to equivalent-sized passive sensors, but this difference is far more marginal.  The new sensor model also means it's nowhere near as critical to build massive active sensors as it used to be.  As both actives and passives now scale according to the square root of the signal return, you'll hit diminishing returns as your sensors increase in size. 

Worth noting, you don't need search sensors on every ship (contrasting with both types of fire control systems), as long as you have it available somewhere.  As such, recommended usage can be linked loosely to your preferred doctrine.  It can be helpful to set up large active sensors on your command ships if you choose to operate squadrons with dedicated command elements (potentially with possible smaller backups on the lighter ships for detached duty or if/when those command ships end up drawing fire due to said searchlights).  If you go for a generalist option without dedicated command ships, it's a bit more likely that you may want to cut back on your actives to save space.  On the flip side, a carrier-focused doctrine takes the idea of command ship squadrons to its furthest limit: actives are typically the first to get cut entirely from parasite craft due to strict tonnage limitations, since they can rely on their mothership to light up their targets for them.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 02:52:14 am by Culise »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19749 on: May 03, 2020, 07:30:31 am »

I do feel I have to spend the instant points right away. They should be for deciding what your race researched and built before the game begins. It's not like 200 years later your guys can suddenly go "huh, we didn't build those ships 200 years ago, so let's just conjure into reality this new ship with all this new tech". It's a realism thing to me.

I actually came up with another idea to view Build Points/Research Points: They represent the tinkering and building of the civilian sector.  Research in particular can basically be scientists tinkering around with stuff in the background.  Build Points for commercial craft, such as cargo ships and colonizers, just makes sense.  Converted civilian equipment, such as troop transports and aircraft carriers, isn't too much of a stretch.  It's only when you get the battlestars that you have to wonder why we have 100 of the most advanced models that we haven't been using for 100 years.  But a civilian-like ship with modern weapons...

Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19750 on: May 03, 2020, 08:35:14 am »

I build large range actives because even at low tech level a large active sensor can see further than passives, and more accurately.

Also provide more information.  Much more useful information.

Surely there has to be SOME downside to active sensors. If they can just detect everything at a further range, then why have thermal and EM sensors?


Also, first serious combat ship since I stopped playing years ago. Did I forget anything?

Quote
Lance class Frigate (P)      16,083 tons       411 Crew       2,547.5 BP       TCS 322    TH 1,800    EM 0
5595 km/s      Armour 4-56       Shields 0-0       HTK 149      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 7      PPV 44.06
Maint Life 3.60 Years     MSP 1,492    AFR 296%    IFR 4.1%    1YR 177    5YR 2,658    Max Repair 204.8 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP180.00 (10)    Power 1800.0    Fuel Use 176.09%    Signature 180.00    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 3,150,000 Litres    Range 20 billion km (41 days at full power)

25.00cm Spinal C4 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5,595 km/s     Power 16-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 20        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Twin 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 160,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Beam Fire Control R256-TS16000 (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Beam Fire Control R256-TS5600 (70%) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5,600 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R4-PB20 (5)     Total Power Output 20    Exp 10%
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3-PB20 (4)     Total Power Output 12    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS3-R1 (70%) (1)     GPS 5     Range 3.3m km    MCR 356.1k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Like Madman said, actives mean that everything in the system can see that ship. Once you have decent thermal reduction and cloaking tech, you can drop passive listening ships into hostile systems and leave them there for years to build up an accurate profile of enemy numbers, positioning, organization, and speed. That's what I try to do whenever I run into an NPR, since it doesn't piss them off to have a ship they can't see in their territory.

There are a couple issues with that ship.

1. The 12cm turrets are unnecessary. They have barely more damage and range than the 10cms but cost more tonnage, require more power, and split up your effective and maximum engagement ranges.
2. The fuel efficiency is atrocious, especially given that you've set it up for 4-year tours of duty. That's barely going to make it two jumps away from Sol before needing refueling.

That said, it's low-tech, so it's going to be garbage no matter what and there are relatively few things you can do that aren't just shuffling the problems around besides standardizing the lasers. I'd suggest accepting lower speed, dumping the spinal, changing the 12cms for more 10cms, and pairing it with a missile boat.

It's alright-ish if you're only going to be using it as a monitor, but if you want to use it as part of a striking force you need to trim down how much it's carrying and accept a lower max speed -- nuclear pulse drives are crap, and overloading on them is just going to kill your fuel efficiency without adding enough speed to be relevant against any serious threats. At the TL you're at, either you gamble on not running into anything dangerous and don't build military, or you build cheap disposable missile FACs/~4-8k ton frigates and gauss PD ships. There's a sort of critical mass situation at ~TL4-5 where you can make ships that have enough speed, armor, PD, offensive firepower, and supply to be effective combat units. Prior to that, you're only going to get maybe one or two of those points at the expense of the rest.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Shooer

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19751 on: May 03, 2020, 09:14:36 am »

Thought we were talking combat ships.  I always run as if my main combat ships are going to be seen.  Unless I'm specifically making stealth combat ships with cloaks and masked drives..  I'd rather have a solid lock on enemy ships with actives.

My sensor platforms use passives.

Especially now with the shield changes I'm running a lot more fleets with shields and those glow to EM sensors as well.

I also run with redundancy actives in my fleet.  I don't turn on all the actives in a fleet.  Just turn one of each sensor on until one of the ships that was active loses it's sensor.
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Madman198237

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19752 on: May 03, 2020, 09:19:36 am »

Don't run around with shields on outside combat. Passives are to be used BEFORE combat, actives and shields DURING combat. If you haven't been found yet there's not usually a point to helping the enemy by having shields and actives running.
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Shooer

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19753 on: May 03, 2020, 09:52:26 am »

I turn on shields before entering a known occupied system, they just take to long to charge if you turn them on after getting shot at.  I'd rather enter a system and let the enemy come to me.  If you stand on the JP and your enemy comes to you, you gain a great advantage in that you can use the JP to escape or set up an ambush if you can get them to follow you through.

I also will use my active ships as bait.  To either force the enemy to engage away from bases over their planets or to distract for my stealth ships if I have any.  It's worked well to use them to divert enemy ships far enough away that I can sneak stealth siege ships in to deliver a massive flood of extreme range mirvs after sneaking around the system. 

Again, I use passives when I'm not fighting.  But if we are talking combat I'd rather know more sooner.  Actives just give more information.  Rather just spend the tonnage on an active than dividing it up in passives in my ships that are going to get shot at.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #19754 on: May 03, 2020, 10:01:06 am »

I build large range actives because even at low tech level a large active sensor can see further than passives, and more accurately.

Also provide more information.  Much more useful information.

Surely there has to be SOME downside to active sensors. If they can just detect everything at a further range, then why have thermal and EM sensors?


Also, first serious combat ship since I stopped playing years ago. Did I forget anything?

Quote
Lance class Frigate (P)      16,083 tons       411 Crew       2,547.5 BP       TCS 322    TH 1,800    EM 0
5595 km/s      Armour 4-56       Shields 0-0       HTK 149      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 7      PPV 44.06
Maint Life 3.60 Years     MSP 1,492    AFR 296%    IFR 4.1%    1YR 177    5YR 2,658    Max Repair 204.8 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP180.00 (10)    Power 1800.0    Fuel Use 176.09%    Signature 180.00    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 3,150,000 Litres    Range 20 billion km (41 days at full power)

25.00cm Spinal C4 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5,595 km/s     Power 16-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 20        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Twin 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 160,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Beam Fire Control R256-TS16000 (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Beam Fire Control R256-TS5600 (70%) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5,600 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R4-PB20 (5)     Total Power Output 20    Exp 10%
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3-PB20 (4)     Total Power Output 12    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS3-R1 (70%) (1)     GPS 5     Range 3.3m km    MCR 356.1k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Like Madman said, actives mean that everything in the system can see that ship. Once you have decent thermal reduction and cloaking tech, you can drop passive listening ships into hostile systems and leave them there for years to build up an accurate profile of enemy numbers, positioning, organization, and speed. That's what I try to do whenever I run into an NPR, since it doesn't piss them off to have a ship they can't see in their territory.

There are a couple issues with that ship.

1. The 12cm turrets are unnecessary. They have barely more damage and range than the 10cms but cost more tonnage, require more power, and split up your effective and maximum engagement ranges.
2. The fuel efficiency is atrocious, especially given that you've set it up for 4-year tours of duty. That's barely going to make it two jumps away from Sol before needing refueling.

That said, it's low-tech, so it's going to be garbage no matter what and there are relatively few things you can do that aren't just shuffling the problems around besides standardizing the lasers. I'd suggest accepting lower speed, dumping the spinal, changing the 12cms for more 10cms, and pairing it with a missile boat.

It's alright-ish if you're only going to be using it as a monitor, but if you want to use it as part of a striking force you need to trim down how much it's carrying and accept a lower max speed -- nuclear pulse drives are crap, and overloading on them is just going to kill your fuel efficiency without adding enough speed to be relevant against any serious threats. At the TL you're at, either you gamble on not running into anything dangerous and don't build military, or you build cheap disposable missile FACs/~4-8k ton frigates and gauss PD ships. There's a sort of critical mass situation at ~TL4-5 where you can make ships that have enough speed, armor, PD, offensive firepower, and supply to be effective combat units. Prior to that, you're only going to get maybe one or two of those points at the expense of the rest.

I've made the same mistake with the engines.  With Nuclear-level drives, just give up on building max power engines.  There isn't enough fuel in Sol to get a fleet of those ships to the front lines.  I've found the ideal military engine in the era to be a cross between more standard military engines (small size, 100% power) and Commercial Engines (25 size, 50% power).  Basically something like 15 size, 70% power.  Don't neglect fuel efficiency and armor, as eventually the drive tech takes years to research and you might be able to get some real savings from those techs.

I usually design my fleets around max speeds, so its usually the first thing I prioritize.  But with fuel and maintenance, I'd probably put operational range first.  It has to be able to get out of Sol without tankers or its useless.  But then I'd probably design around a fixed speed, as that is what defines the service life of a ship in my fleet.

No passive sensors?  I'm pretty sure that passives pick things up regardless of size based upon the strength of the source.  No max range (as far as I can tell), and they don't vary detection on the size of the vessel (except for the whole "bigger vessels probably have more stuff").

...I actually like the Spinal Laser, although I have no idea how much of the ship is taken up by it.  Monitor might be a fairly accurate description: One large gun, armor, can't leave coastal waters.

You'll want shields.  The changes to shields make they very worthwhile.  You can now pull off Star Trek stuff, where they absorb hits during battle, then you take hits to the hull, then if you can get away for a bit, you can actually get the shields back up during an engagement and they'll keep the enemy lasers from getting to those holes in your hull.
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