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[Neonivek]

Well what I mean is... if you are fighting a moon sized (ok that is a bit of an exaggeration) high tech enemy who is about 10 "tiers" above you.

You wouldn't build hundreds of ships and send them with long range lasers or anything like that...

No you would outfit them with hundreds upon hundreds of missiles.

[Bremen]

Well, at a certain level of tech advantage a vessel can have longer range beam weapons and be able to dictate the range against its enemies, meaning the opponents will never be able to get a shot in.

The same holds true for missiles, but regardless of tech advantage you will eventually run out of missiles, and they'll always outrange beams regardless of tech level. So yeah, a ship 10 tech tiers higher could probably destroy an infinite number of enemy beam vessels before they could fire, but only a finite number of enemy missile vessels before they could fire.

On the other hand, with a 10 tier tech advantage the ship would likely be faster than the enemy missiles, so it's maybe not much difference if the situation is that extreme. But with a difference of 3 tiers or so yes, a massive missile fleet could still overwhelm the enemy (assuming it didn't retreat) but a beam fleet probably could not.

[Witty]

Thanks Flying Dice and everyone else, I have at least a semblance of what I'm doing now  . I may post my first missile design sometime for the collective to scrutinize.

My current plan is to crank out some geo and grav surveyors, slap some basic jump drives on the grav ships and then focus on sensor tech a bit to start the preparations of a basic, not blind "warship" ship for outer system scouting.

[EuchreJack]

Missiles seem to be the only weapon that can really fire outside its tier range so to speak. At least that is the impression I get.

Missiles are a lot like ships though, and less like weapons.  You can be low tech and build a great heaping lump of iron and ion and be able to beat down things three times your tech level, simply because you have a massive old dreadnought.  Similarly, a missile can overcome a lot of its limits by being larger, and packing a bigger punch or a faster speed simply by increasing size.  An 'at tier' missile would probably be size 1 or 2, but most people build their missiles closer to 4 or 5, because why wouldn't you go bigger and go deadlier?

I think the game treats missiles from size 1 to size 6 as identical for purposes of countering them (sensors to track, weapons to hit).  So anything in that range will far quite well.

Although, most tactical doctrine for missiles seems to favor a single large volley.  Hence two size-3 missiles are better than one size-6.  And if tech allows, six size-1s are the best.  My limited low-tech missile experience shows that size-4 is pretty much the lowest you can go and still balance range, accuracy, and damage.  Basically talking ion engines and only one upgrade to warhead damage.  The real limiting factor is always getting all those missiles launched at once.

I like the idea of a primitive spacefaring race building "a great heaping lump of iron and ion and be able to beat down things three times your tech level, simply because you have a massive old dreadnought."  I'll have to start a new game and SM in a massive shipyard to test it out!

[Girlinhat]

I like the idea of a primitive spacefaring race building "a great heaping lump of iron and ion and be able to beat down things three times your tech level, simply because you have a massive old dreadnought."  I'll have to start a new game and SM in a massive shipyard to test it out!

I've done it, with mixed effectiveness.  The basics you want to achieve with an iron dreadnought are CIWS and a mix of lasers and particle beams, as well as enormous layers of armor.  The reasoning here is, missiles are your greatest threat.  You'll be slow and vulnerable, so the CIWS (gauss and turret tech) are essential to survival, as they're a cheap way to defend a single vessel.  You won't be able to catch enemies who use missiles, either, because you're still slow.  So you basically weather their missile assaults using CIWS and laser defenses (having a number of double turrets for anti-missile and anti-fighter is decent), and then pack large anti-ship lasers and particles.  When the enemy runs out of missiles, you keep lumbering towards them.  You may in fact be totally unable to reach their ships, but planets are harder to hide.  You can bomb their colonies.

Box launchers with 100 size warheads are amazing.  Remember that if you're in orbit, and launching a 'missile' with zero fuel, it can still hit a population.  It'll irradiate the planet for centuries, but a 100 warhead pure 'gravity bomb' with a box launcher is 15 hull space to drop a planet killer.  There is no kill like overkill.

Also, adding an orbital habitat will make it a construction option, as well as a shipyard option, which lets you bypass normal shipyard limits and use construction factories instead.  Expensive, and you carry the dead weight of at least one orbital habitat, but it does open up infinite size vessels.

[MarcAFK]

Except for the limit to jump engine size. Maximum size for a highest tier jump tech military vessel is only a mere 1.25 million tons, maximum size for a commercial is 9.375, so of course everybody always splits their behemoth into multiple sections which is terribly micromanagey...
Edit: oh and the cost of researching jump engines increases at the square of the size, so a size 1000 engine costs 627 thousand RP's, size 100 only costs 9950 and size 10 a mere 160....

[JOKER_G]

Now fighting against some NPR heavy armor battleship. D9 are almost useless, 30 missiles with D16 warhead can hardly kill one. Even when using D30 torpedo I need 15 or 16.

They crushed my 2nd fleet and invaded sol. 1st fleet and battlestations over earth fought hard, sank and disabled over 50 cruisers and several battleships, then boarded six of them. One crusier defeated 4 companies of marine and escaped. Then another huge fleet, consisting 30 battleships, appeared. Bastard.

[MarcAFK]

Sounds like an  'invasion'.

[JOKER_G]

Not an invasion, but an 1000% difficulty NPR. Basically we have same tech level (mass-produced M-P engine and prototype ICF engine, same armor tech), I have higher missile tech but no laser tech. Their biggest advantage is number, both ships and colonies. My missile storge on earth is almost empty.

My biggest and strongest battleship, Orion class, but only one has been build yet.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GTD Orion class Battleship    30,000 tons     739 Crew     7999.4 BP      TCS 600  TH 720  EM 0
5000 km/s     Armour 13-86     Shields 0-0     Sensors 70/90/0/0     Damage Control Rating 25     PPV 105.2
Maint Life 2.42 Years     MSP 4166    AFR 288%    IFR 4%    1YR 979    5YR 14684    Max Repair 1000 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 20 months    Spare Berths 1   
Flag Bridge    Magazine 1730   

Lumion-I 1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (3)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 20%    Signature 240    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 2,500,000 Litres    Range 75.0 billion km   (173 days at full power)

Flak Turret Mark 1 (2x8)    Range 24,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Flak Control MK1 (2)    Max Range: 24,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     58 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Missile Tube S1 (20)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Tube S6 Large (15)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 75
D-S AMMFC R38 (2)     Range 38.9m km    Resolution 1
D-S SSMFC-R349 (1)     Range 349.9m km    Resolution 100
SSM-2F Harpoon(AS) (150)  Speed: 37,500 km/s   End: 92.5m    Range: 208.1m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 187/112/56
RAM-1C Sidewinder (650)  Speed: 58,000 km/s   End: 1.3m    Range: 4.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 792/475/237
A/SSM-5 Lance (30)  Speed: 37,500 km/s   End: 9m    Range: 20.2m km   WH: 30    Size: 6    TH: 150/90/45

D-S MAAS MR38-R1 (1)     GPS 216     Range 38.9m km    MCR 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Wellen-Hinde MASS MR648-R100 (1)     GPS 36000     Range 648.0m km    Resolution 100
Rayson Thermal Sensor TH5-70 (1)     Sensitivity 70     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70m km
Rayson EM Detection Sensor EM5-90 (1)     Sensitivity 90     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  90m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 30

Gaia class, smaller and older, but still powerful. 3 in service, 1 lost.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GTD Gaia class Battleship    25,000 tons     468 Crew     5254.6 BP      TCS 500  TH 1600  EM 0
3200 km/s     Armour 10-76     Shields 0-0     Sensors 55/70/0/0     Damage Control Rating 25     PPV 114.6
Maint Life 5.7 Years     MSP 3284    AFR 200%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 171    5YR 2565    Max Repair 630 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 20 months    Spare Berths 1   
Flag Bridge    Magazine 1590   

Afterlight 320 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (5)    Power 320    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 320    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 2,500,000 Litres    Range 45.0 billion km   (162 days at full power)

Flak Turret Mark 1 (4x8)    Range 24,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Flak Control MK1 (2)    Max Range: 24,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     58 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Missile Tube S6 (40)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 720
Deprospero-Streich SSMFC R315 (2)     Range 315.5m km    Resolution 20
SSM-2B Harpoon(AS) (165)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   End: 90.3m    Range: 162.6m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 160/96/48
SSM-2C Harpoon(TS) (100)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   End: 84.8m    Range: 152.7m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 160/96/48

Wellen-Hinde MASS MR588-R100 (1)     GPS 42000     Range 588.0m km    Resolution 100
Deprospero-Streich MAAS MR1-R1 (2)     GPS 14     Range 2.0m km    MCR 213k km    Resolution 1
Rayson-Baskerville Thermal Sensor S55 (1)     Sensitivity 55     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  55m km
Rayson-Baskerville EM Detection Sensor S70 (1)     Sensitivity 70     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70m km

Fenris class and Leviathan class cruiser, the backbone of my fleet. 16 Fenris and 20 Leviathan built, 5 and 3 lost, many damaged.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GTC Fenris class Cruiser    10,000 tons     234 Crew     2020.6 BP      TCS 200  TH 640  EM 0
3200 km/s     Armour 4-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 8     PPV 24
Maint Life 3.49 Years     MSP 1010    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 127    5YR 1907    Max Repair 420 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 20 months    Flight Crew Berths 34   
Hangar Deck Capacity 2000 tons     Magazine 474   

Afterlight 320 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2)    Power 320    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 320    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 33.8 billion km   (122 days at full power)

Missile Tube S1 (24)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Deprospero-Streich AMMFC R38 (2)     Range 38.2m km    Resolution 1
AAM-4B Stinger(AS) (72)  Speed: 28,200 km/s   End: 12.3m    Range: 20.8m km   WH: 4    Size: 1.7    TH: 263/158/79
RAM-1B Sidewinder (352)  Speed: 48,000 km/s   End: 1.6m    Range: 4.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 528/316/158

Deprospero-Streich MAAS MR39-R1 (1)     GPS 280     Range 39.2m km    MCR 4.3m km    Resolution 1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GTC Leviathan class Cruiser    10,000 tons     187 Crew     2188.2 BP      TCS 200  TH 640  EM 0
3200 km/s     Armour 6-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 55/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 8     PPV 57.3
Maint Life 4.63 Years     MSP 1094    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 83    5YR 1250    Max Repair 294 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 20 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 570    Cryogenic Berths 200   

Afterlight 320 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2)    Power 320    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 320    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 800,000 Litres    Range 36.0 billion km   (130 days at full power)

Flak Turret Mark 1 (2x8)    Range 24,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Flak Control MK1 (2)    Max Range: 24,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     58 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Missile Tube S6 (20)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 720
Deprospero-Streich SSMFC R315 (1)     Range 315.5m km    Resolution 20
SSM-2B Harpoon(AS) (45)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   End: 90.3m    Range: 162.6m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 160/96/48
SSM-2D Harpoon (LR) (50)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   End: 138.7m    Range: 249.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 160/96/48

Wellen-Hinde MASS MR274-R100  (1)     GPS 19600     Range 274.4m km    Resolution 100
Deprospero-Streich MAAS MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 14     Range 2.0m km    MCR 213k km    Resolution 1
Rayson-Baskerville Thermal Sensor S55 (1)     Sensitivity 55     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  55m km

Captured destroyers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Badik class Jump Destroyer    9,850 tons     216 Crew     1577.5 BP      TCS 197  TH 739  EM 0
3751 km/s    JR 3-100     Armour 6-40     Shields 0-0     Sensors 16/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 15
Maint Life 1.34 Years     MSP 400    AFR 194%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 237    5YR 3558    Max Repair 252 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 4   
Magazine 231   

J10000(3-100) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 10000 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 3
105.6 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (7)    Power 105.6    Fuel Use 83.51%    Signature 105.6    Exp 11%
Fuel Capacity 2,150,000 Litres    Range 47.0 billion km   (145 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher (3)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 40
Missile Fire Control FC144-R70 (1)     Range 144.6m km    Resolution 70

Active Search Sensor MR168-R70 (1)     GPS 17640     Range 168.7m km    Resolution 70
Thermal Sensor TH2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 20

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Imam Bonjol class Missile Destroyer    9,850 tons     213 Crew     1898.6 BP      TCS 197  TH 739  EM 0
3751 km/s     Armour 10-40     Shields 0-0     Sensors 16/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 30
Maint Life 1.52 Years     MSP 482    AFR 194%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 237    5YR 3557    Max Repair 288 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 462   

105.6 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (7)    Power 105.6    Fuel Use 83.51%    Signature 105.6    Exp 11%
Fuel Capacity 1,600,000 Litres    Range 35.0 billion km   (108 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC192-R70 (1)     Range 192.8m km    Resolution 70

Active Search Sensor MR192-R70 (1)     GPS 20160     Range 192.8m km    Resolution 70
Thermal Sensor TH2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 20

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sanca class Destroyer    9,850 tons     294 Crew     3668.6 BP      TCS 197  TH 739  EM 0
3751 km/s     Armour 7-40     Shields 0-0     Sensors 8/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 55
Maint Life 1.68 Years     MSP 931    AFR 194%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 395    5YR 5932    Max Repair 395 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 0   

105.6 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (7)    Power 105.6    Fuel Use 83.51%    Signature 105.6    Exp 11%
Fuel Capacity 1,500,000 Litres    Range 32.8 billion km   (101 days at full power)

35cm C10 X-Ray Laser (5)    Range 480,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 32-10     RM 7    ROF 20        32 32 32 32 32 32 32 27 24 22
Fire Control S02 240-8000 (1)    Max Range: 480,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (9)     Total Power Output 54    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR168-R70 (1)     GPS 17640     Range 168.7m km    Resolution 70
Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 20

[Flying Dice]

Ooh, I always love seeing that sort of slugger-style missile fleet comp, even if I don't use it much myself.

Also, people? Joker's just given us a perfect example of why 1000% difficulty NPRs are awesome to fight against, especially with the recent improvements to their R&D.

[Witty]

After foolishly investing into sorium harvesters, thinking that Saturn or Jupiter would have some deposits, my construction specialist just died in a freak accident  . I've also come to realize the importance of asteroids and their small but easy to access deposits. So basically when I have the tech to start designing asteroid miners (next year...), will it be worth the shipyard space to do so in the long term?

[Sharp]

I find asteroid miners a bit of a waste to be honest. It is normally easier to just build an automine and land it on an asteroid/comet. The only time an asteroid miner comes in handy over an automine is if your in a disputed area and may need to abandon an asteroid quickly as an automine can take a few days to unload and move, but that is a very fringe case and less likely to happen unless Steve adds some super rare mineral in so you might have to fight over asteroids and be in a rush to mine it.

[Flying Dice]

You don't even need to do that in systems you've colonized once you have trade going, just buy from the civvies.

[JOKER_G]

Ooh, I always love seeing that sort of slugger-style missile fleet comp, even if I don't use it much myself.

Also, people? Joker's just given us a perfect example of why 1000% difficulty NPRs are awesome to fight against, especially with the recent improvements to their R&D.

Slugger-style?
I'd prefer long-range missile attack, so my fleets ususlly consist these missile crusiers, light carriers with torpedo bombers, sensor ships(or battleships) and supply ships. In most battles against NPRs, I have fewer ship but few casualties.
However, it is a real pain that my ordnance production can never catch up with consumption. My fleet have launched over 6000 AMMs ,2000 ASMs and several hundreds of torpedos during the Battle of Earth.

[Flying Dice]

No, no. In the sense that you make a bunch of big ships and throw massive weight of fire at things, rather than kiting things around with hundreds of fighters and frigates.