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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2848694 times)

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13095 on: February 05, 2013, 10:51:42 am »

What kind of roleplay do you people include in your games?

 For my next game, I'm planning to create a Stargate-esque galaxy. Goa-uld ruling the galaxy with ancient ships, the Asgard fleet sitting in some highly defended system with the best technology present, Tau-ri sitting in their quiet corner of the galaxy with missile weapons, gathering more technology as they defeat enemies instead of researching it. For example, if they go to war with the asgard and win, I'll give them beam technology. If they destroy the Goa-uld, they automagically receive dozens of small colonies scattered about the universe.
A lot of times I'll come up with some in-universe prohibition against genetic engineering or terraforming or both. I kinda dislike terraforming as it stands because it's too simplistic. Plus, it's a definite handicap if you have to produce and haul thousands and thousands of infrastructure points around the galaxy. And it makes those rare 0 cost Earth-like planets VERY important.

I'll typically focus on a single weapon type (often railguns/Gauss guns, since they're a bit more realistic), and where possible, I'll actually consider the random personality traits of commanders. If I'm on the fence as to whether to engage an unknown hostile or attempt to withdraw and get backup, I'll look at the commander's traits. When I get a new Fleet Commander, I use his traits to nudge how I prioritize things. Basically, I let the game provide the framework to wrap my "story" around. Even provides good fodder for my Aurora fiction, such as the game where my Fleet Commander lived to be 89 years old, and in extremely poor health.


As far as scenario set-ups:

Battlestar Galactica (see link in sig)
"Scalzi Space" (small universe, high NPR generation rate, high difficulty, focus on ground combat and conquest)
Invasion: Earth (SM race in Real Stars setting, some 15-20 LY from Earth; add Sol System and insert Humans as an NPR -- goal is to find and conquer Earth)
The Progenitors (SM Methane-breathing race. No Terraforming, but LOTS of genetic engineering. Idea is that habitable worlds are going to be few and far between for the Progenitors, but they can conquer and enslave other NPR races, then genetically engineer the hell out of them to settle different worlds)
Out of the Mists (SM race from a nebula start system. Naturally encourages heavy R&D into armor, sensors and direct fire weaponry and eschews missile tech, hyperdrives and shields since they don't work there. Your designs will tend to be ponderous but tough dreadnoughts compared to non-nebula races)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 04:53:28 pm by RedKing »
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ndkid

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13096 on: February 06, 2013, 01:24:01 pm »

I'll give it back to you in your own words:

never-ending stream of errors or interrupts
Actually, if you look, that's j.h, not me.


If it ends, it isn't a campaign killer.
If that's how you want to define your terms, that's fine, but something that throws up dozens of dialogs every time increment without preventing me from continuing on meets my definition of "campaign killer".

On another note, how, precisely, does "more NPRs" equate to /0 or overflow errors? Have you ever had either?
Yes.

Do you know what typically causes them?
Generally, they are areas where upping the difficulty mod leads to overflows. Steve has fixed some, but not all of these, over time. NPR wealth calculations that overflow 32-bit numbers are the first one that jump to mind, but anything that an NPR has lots more of that a standard player when you up the difficulty % and run for a few decades was a potential cause.


There's one potential source of /0 errors that would be affected by flooding the game with NPRs, but genning a system that causes a /0 error is rare enough that you can play for decades or centuries without encountering one.
Usually it's a few decades before I leave my home system. See my previous post where I talk about how issues are more frequent if you don't play the game the way Steve does.

Incidentally, /0 and overflow error are by and large trivialities, because there are a limited number of potential causes, most/all of which can be easily removed.
I think this is just another semantic difference between us; as I noted before, I think you're assuming that someone has the db password and knowledge of the database structure, both of which certainly go far beyond the abilities of your average game player. The fact that you and I can do these things due to having invested time in learning something about relational databases and the structure of the Aurora DB doesn't make them "trivial", anymore than hitting a baseball with a bit is trivial just because someone who played a lot in high school can do it easily.

The only time I've ever seen an error that was neither of those and that didn't go away if I clicked through it was due to a faulty install. I can't recall ever seeing errors related to NPRs buggering up their ship designs, and I've never seen any related to commanders (unless it was so long ago and easily resolved that I've forgotten it). You don't need Designer Mode to fix most errors, by the by.
It sounds like the argument you're making is "since I don't have these problems except in situation A, Situation A is the only time these problems occur". I hope you see the mental bias and logical fallacy involved in such an argument.



Have you ever played EUIII!? (Rhetorical question, for the sake of my sanity I'm assuming you have, please don't answer.) It only throws up interrupts for random events, declarations of war, etc. You also have little or no control over when it interrupts.

I'm guessing you've never used the feature that's been built into each of the games with the Clausewitz engine (and some of the ones built on the previous engine, though I don't have a comprehensive list) where you can right-click on a popup and change whether it pops up with no pause, pops up with pause, or does not pop up. I've found it very helpful in all of the Clausewitz-engine games to control what auto-pauses and what doesn't. And, of course, no matter how much you speed up EU3, the ticks are of consistent size, which is not true in Aurora's case, which is the root cause of the behavior. All of those values get stored in the messagetypes_custom file, if memory serves.

Aurora will interrupt for damned near anything unless you've set an obscenely high minimum tick count so that it can only interrupt every five minutes or so. If you do that in combat, you bloody well deserve to be mauled.
I understand that you feel crossing a previously empty system with a 5-day increment only to have missiles at my hull because the interrupt fired at the end of the several-minute chunk (I think Steve programed the pulses to be increment/3600, min 5sec, but I'd have to go back and look) rather than when the sensor contact would have first occurred instead, I just do not agree.


Let me reiterate: Aurora is one of my favorite games. However, it's one of my favorite games *despite* the fact that my play style is fundamentally different from Steve's and, as a result, the way I play in his sandbox tends to lead to problems that he doesn't see and, therefore, doesn't fix. Some are nuisance (such as errors getting thrown after a few decades whenever I create a team of any type, which I've still never been able to determine the specific test case for) and some are bigger beasts that lead me to have to close 20 dialogs every time increment until I decide it's time to start a new campaign, instead. I mean, I'm still getting way more than what I pay for.... it's the best sci-fi sandbox game out there. But much like I think it's silly for someone to complain that Steve isn't creating the game *they* want to play, I think it's silly to act like anyone who is playing in the sandbox in a less-supported-way is doing it wrong.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:37:07 pm by ndkid »
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FritzPL

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13097 on: February 06, 2013, 02:30:40 pm »

cool

Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13098 on: February 06, 2013, 02:35:10 pm »

Oh darn, and we were so close to hitting 14 days before the indignant response to a halfhearted argument.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

LoSboccacc

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13099 on: February 06, 2013, 06:57:19 pm »

the way I play in his sandbox tends to lead to problems that he doesn't see and, therefore, doesn't fix.

honest question: have you reported them?
link or didn't happen.

nobody will fix error you can't report. specially if you don't provide a save that exhibit the behaviour in a reproducible manner.
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Tarran

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13100 on: February 06, 2013, 08:15:47 pm »

Sometimes you don't even need to send a save, sometimes all you need to do is copy the error message and tell him how to reproduce it.
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ndkid

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13101 on: February 06, 2013, 09:45:01 pm »

the way I play in his sandbox tends to lead to problems that he doesn't see and, therefore, doesn't fix.

honest question: have you reported them?
link or didn't happen.

nobody will fix error you can't report. specially if you don't provide a save that exhibit the behaviour in a reproducible manner.

My posting history is
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1631;sa=showPosts
so you can see which bugs I've reported.

The stuff I emailed back and forth with Steve about rather than posting to the boards I'd have to dig up separately.

EDIT: Huh, I've been playing Aurora for three years? How the time flies...
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EuchreJack

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13102 on: February 10, 2013, 10:49:12 pm »

Reloading my game out of SM mode, it runs fine.  Apparently, it is more likely to slow down to 5 sec turns if I'm in SM mode.  Either that or the battle finally resolved.

Mini

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13103 on: February 10, 2013, 11:38:24 pm »

It's much more likely to be the latter, I am not aware of SM mode doing anything other than enabling buttons and such for the player.
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Greenbane

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13104 on: February 11, 2013, 01:01:33 am »

Even though I love Aurora, I've to agree with ndkid on the regrettably limited lifespan of games. The primary enemies of an Aurora game are:

1) Interrupts: The main game killer. I've had several games I had to give up on because eventually NPRs would get into endless fights every other week, over and over. Such phenomenon forced me to go through long periods of game-time largely on 5-second increments, because the game just can't simplify time passage for the AI at all and still simulate it. The last game I lost to this had me wading through an untold amount of game-time clicking on the 5-second increment button. I left the game running on automatic increments for a few hours before I gave up.

2) Errors: Rarer than interminable interrupt scenarios but still a possibility, even if your game's installed properly. The last time I played Aurora, a couple of years ago, my longest (40+ years), most exciting game so far irrevocably came to an end as increments were processed slower and slower as time went on. The database kept bloating in size, and eventually a stream of errors forbade me to keep going forward. It was a bug related to Star Swarm reproduction, which created immense numbers of their "ships" and totally saturated the game. Even if the errors hadn't stopped my game, I'd have eventually stumbled upon those gargantuan fleets and my Aurora would've exploded right there and then. The bug was fixed on a later version, but too late to save my game.

3) Major updates: Since the bulk of Aurora is in a huge blob of a database file which also happens to inextricably contain running games, any significant release has you restarting if you want to take advantage of new features. Not a problem if you're content just sticking with the older version, but that's difficult given newer versions tend to fix problems, and you remain totally unsupported if you fall behind for the sake of your ongoing game.

In the strictest sense of the word, most of the aforementioned aren't gamebreakers, but if moving the game forward becomes as easy as dragging a wagon with square wheels, it just stops being an enjoyable experience. You may get through a grueling period of 5-sec increments, but knowing it can happen again and again, and worsen with time can be pretty disheartening. It saps the fun out of it just like it would to click through many non-fatal error pop-ups every other increment.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13105 on: February 11, 2013, 01:03:21 am »

It's much more likely to be the latter, I am not aware of SM mode doing anything other than enabling buttons and such for the player.
This. The game is still tracking everything, all SM mode does is let you see a bit more of it. That, and cheat.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13106 on: February 11, 2013, 01:24:07 am »

You can always get the designer mode password; it lets you see what NPRs are doing and also delete stuff if you're stuck with a neverending battle (or just impatient).

Or do what I do and don't start with any NPRs  ;D
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Zangi

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13107 on: February 11, 2013, 10:36:10 am »

I believe it has been repeated before, if you want the designer mode password, send a PM to Steve on the pentarch/Aurora forums.
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Greenbane

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13108 on: February 11, 2013, 07:15:25 pm »

You can always get the designer mode password; it lets you see what NPRs are doing and also delete stuff if you're stuck with a neverending battle (or just impatient).

Or do what I do and don't start with any NPRs  ;D

You can, but entering SM/designer mode reveals a lot of things as a side-effect. And destroying the exploration aspect of the game would kill a significant portion of the fun for many of us.

And removing NPRs (potentially real opponents) altogether isn't an option for me either, as fighting nothing but Precursors and Star Swarm would get old fast. The whole universe would feel empty and lifeless. Imagine playing any Civilization game with nothing to look forward to but wiping out barbarians.
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Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #13109 on: February 11, 2013, 07:37:13 pm »

You can always get the designer mode password; it lets you see what NPRs are doing and also delete stuff if you're stuck with a neverending battle (or just impatient).

Or do what I do and don't start with any NPRs  ;D

You can, but entering SM/designer mode reveals a lot of things as a side-effect. And destroying the exploration aspect of the game would kill a significant portion of the fun for many of us.

And removing NPRs (potentially real opponents) altogether isn't an option for me either, as fighting nothing but Precursors and Star Swarm would get old fast. The whole universe would feel empty and lifeless. Imagine playing any Civilization game with nothing to look forward to but wiping out barbarians.

If you don't want to, you don't have to look at much with the designer mode; you can just use it to end any everlasting fights. And I didn't say play without NPRs, I said start without NPRs. The game will add them in as you expand, but it's having them around from the beginning that really causes the 5 second turns.
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