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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2815232 times)

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10275 on: April 16, 2012, 10:58:03 am »

The OH is Pete's Booze'n'Wenches Space Bar. Presumably it has a cryogenic hold for the bartenders and wenches. Just park it at a nearby asteroid and thaw 'em out and park the fleet.
"Hey boss, we've got a Navy cruiser requesting permission to dock."
"Thaw out the hookers!" xD


I'm liking the crew change, although I'm curious what happens if a ship's morale drops low enough...do they defect? Do they go rogue? Might be a potential mechanic to introduce pirates? :D
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10276 on: April 16, 2012, 12:20:08 pm »

The OH is Pete's Booze'n'Wenches Space Bar. Presumably it has a cryogenic hold for the bartenders and wenches. Just park it at a nearby asteroid and thaw 'em out and park the fleet.
"Hey boss, we've got a Navy cruiser requesting permission to dock."
"Thaw out the hookers!" xD


I'm liking the crew change, although I'm curious what happens if a ship's morale drops low enough...do they defect? Do they go rogue? Might be a potential mechanic to introduce pirates? :D

If I remember what I read last night correctly, lower morale affects training checks, so basically having rock-bottom morale would be equivalent to having a crew that did the bare minimum necessary to keep the ship running. Luna help us if it also ends up affecting response times, maint. checks, and such.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Girlinhat

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10277 on: April 16, 2012, 12:26:00 pm »

We already know that low morale will result in slower response times.  That's confirmed.  You have a definite reason to expand your borders to allow for relief colonies and supercarriers may become more relevant.

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10278 on: April 16, 2012, 12:49:46 pm »

Ahh okay. Darn, no rebel fleets because they got fed up with long picket duty assignments.

And yeah, definitely gives some more impetus for building "ports of call" to extend your borders. I wonder if it'll be a toggle option like maintenance is? Some people may not want to deal with a major new wrinkle like that.
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Karlito

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10279 on: April 16, 2012, 12:52:24 pm »

And yeah, definitely gives some more impetus for building "ports of call" to extend your borders. I wonder if it'll be a toggle option like maintenance is? Some people may not want to deal with a major new wrinkle like that.

Fairly certain Steve mentioned that it would be togglable.
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KoE

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10280 on: April 16, 2012, 12:54:10 pm »

Yeah, it's at the bottom of the post about the crew changes as an edit. I asked the same question not realizing he had edited it.  :P
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RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10281 on: April 16, 2012, 01:02:10 pm »

Cool. I'll probably pay with it on most of the time, but I could see it presenting a major problem in some scenarios (like a Battlestar Galactica "ragtag, fugitive fleet" or a Star Blazers "one giant, superadvanced ship travelling far, far from Earth" concept).

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Girlinhat

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10282 on: April 16, 2012, 01:03:50 pm »

I may play with it, but the AI usually ignored things like fuel, supplies, training, I assume they'll ignore fatigue.  That can give them a big advantage...

Also just realized, when your ship suffers engine trouble you can end up with big issues as your crew suffers from Space Crazy.

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10283 on: April 16, 2012, 01:16:30 pm »

I may play with it, but the AI usually ignored things like fuel, supplies, training, I assume they'll ignore fatigue.  That can give them a big advantage...

Also just realized, when your ship suffers engine trouble you can end up with big issues as your crew suffers from Space Crazy.
Yes, but the AI could use that advantage when you consider it has the disadvantage of being stump dumb (or at least untricky).
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10284 on: April 16, 2012, 01:26:26 pm »

That at least is true...

I'm debating ways to visualize ships, based on their HS as a ratio to how large each item should be.  Any ideas?

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10285 on: April 16, 2012, 02:39:21 pm »

Good question. I've been considering using GalCiv 2's ship builder to make some "screenshots" of my designs for my Aurora fics, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

If you're talking more about "I want to render something and am looking for scale suggestions", then I'd offer this:

The Space Shuttle is ~2040 tons (fully loaded, at takeoff -- the entire launch system, not just the orbiter). The solid rocket boosters account for about 60% of that, weighing in at roughly 590 tons each. The breakdown of that is 500 tons for the fuel, 90 tons for the empty tank itself.

The SRBs are 45.46m long and 3.71m in diameter. If we calculate them as a pure cylinder (overestimating the volume slightly because of the conical nose), we get a volume of 265.64 m3. Figure that against the 590 metric tons weight, and you get an average density of 2.221 metric tons per cubic meter. Or, to be useful for our purposes, 0.45 cubic meters per ton.

So then (at least for fuel elements), 0.45 m3 per ton would be a "realistic" value for fuel storage with modern-day tech, at least.
So a standard fuel storage (1 HS / 50 tons) would be 22.5 cubic meters, so maybe picture a cube about 2.85m on a side?

Of course, that's just fuel storage (and solid fuel at that, which is going to be extra-heavy). Other sections would be comparatively larger or smaller for the same amount of weight (cargo space would obviously be much larger volume for the same amount of space/ armor is probably a solid block of whatver). And it stands to reason that higher level techs could be much larger for the same amount of weight (or much smaller if miniturization is desired).

TLDR;  it's sci-fi, just make that shit up. :P
As long as you're internally consistent.


EDIT: Also, for comparison, the largest commercial freighter on Earth (for now) is the Maersk E-class container ship.

Gross tonnage: 170,794 metric tonnes
Net tonnage (calculation of cargo space): 55,396 tonnes
Length: 397.71m
Beam: 56m
Depth (deck to keel): 30m

Given the shape of the E-class, and the fact that it's typically loaded way above the deck, you could envision a spacefaring cargo freighter to be of similar design, but with the hull simply doubled and "clamshelled" over the top of the ship.

So if we clamshelled an E-class to make a "space freighter", the result would be very blocky and the resulting vessel would be 397.71m x 56m x 60m = 1,336,305.6 m3, and a vessel weight (not counting cargo) of 341,588 tons. For an average vehicle density of 3.912 cubic meters per ton.

If we do the same with a Zumwalt-class destroyer (one of the boxiest, simplest hull designs I could think of, plus it's cutting-edge tech and a low crew complement), we get a ship that's 37,794 m3 (no clamshelling, just calculated as a box) vs. 14,564 tons displacement weight = 2.595 cubic meters per ton. (real figure is probably considerably lower, because I realized that the superstructure is causing the imaginary volume cylinder to be far larger than it should be)

So, I'm being incredibly fast and loose with the math here, but if you want really, really ballpark numbers for the vessel designs as a whole, maybe start with 5 cubic meters per ton for commercial vessels, and maybe half that for naval vessels? This means your tankers and freighters and colony ships are going to dwarf your frigates and destroyers, but that's actually pretty accurate and true to the genre.

Taking the shuttle SRB example above, obviously component sizes are going to vary dramatically. Fuel stores will be very small and dense, engine will be pretty dense, crew sections and cargo will be light, electronics --especially sensors -- will be light. Weapons could run the gamut, depending on how you imagine them designed.

DOUBLE-EDIT: On further thinking, you'd have to tweak the values for ships with unusually large crew complements. The standard Crew Quarters section holds 250 people per 50 tons, or 5 people per ton. At the suggested military rate of 2.595 cubic meters per ton, that gives each person just slightly over 0.5 cubic meters. For reference, the Japanese "capsule hotels" are roughly 2m x 1m x 1.25m = 2.5 cubic meters. I think we can agree that the capsule hotel represents a lower threshold for what a crew would accept as livable quarters.  ;D

So for crew sections, maybe a rate of 12.5 cubic meters per ton for military (using the "capsule hotel" model), and maybe two or three times that for civilian (representing small cabins)?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 03:39:52 pm by RedKing »
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Girlinhat

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10286 on: April 16, 2012, 03:29:51 pm »

Hmm, good numbers.  So if we're going off this as a benchmark, could you suggest "a fuel storage would be approx. X m3 per HS"? and similar for weapons and engines and whatnot?  Ballpark guesses are fine.

RedKing

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10287 on: April 16, 2012, 04:04:36 pm »

I made a crapton of edits to the last post after posting :)

So, we have maybe 0.5m3 per ton for fuel storage, and 12.5m3 for military crew quarters, maybe 25-35m3 for civililan crew quarters.

EDIT: Oops, the above is per ton. So maybe 25m3 per HS for fuel, 625 and 1250-1750m3 for crew quarters per HS. That seems about right. A military 250-person bunk cabin would be 2.5m high X 20m long X 12.5m wide. That sounds feasible. Also adds some much-needed bulk to those larger ships.  ;D


Fuel storage *might* shrink over time, or it might not (you'd expect antimatter to be very light for the amount you need, but then you also need magnetic containers, focusers, etc.).

Armor would actually thin out over time as lighter and stronger materials become the norm. Modern ceramic armors run anywhere from 2.5-6 g/cm3. Assuming a baseline of 3g/cm3 (which is about average), that works out to 0.33 cubic meters per ton. If I had the time and really felt like it, I'd try to assess an armor thickness per "level" of armor, but yeah....When you spread that 0.33 cubic meters out over the total volume of your ship, you're probably only talking tens of millimeters per armor level, at least at the ceramic composite tech level. Thicker with earlier tech like conventional armor, and thinner with higher-tech (denser) armors. Eventually the highest level armors should be mere millimeters (or less) thick (and providing less weight overall than the earlier armors) while providing the same level of ballistic and ablation protection.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 04:15:23 pm by RedKing »
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Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

MarcAFK

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10288 on: April 17, 2012, 03:56:22 am »

I imagine space frieghters to either be a tug hauling a bunch of crap using a cable, or a ship that has crap piled all over it like 4 meersk's stacked around each other since theres no gravity to displace your load, you just need to resist acceleration/deceleration.
With the cable system all you have to do to slow down is rotate the ship and the load so you lead with the load instead of the other way around like the trip out.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #10289 on: April 17, 2012, 09:36:16 am »

Eh, I'd always used the fairly typical mental image of a big, nearly-empty shell filled with cargo.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable
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