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[Sirus]

Forsaken is right about (at least) one thing: black holes are not nature's vacuum cleaners. Outside of the event horizon, gravity remains pretty much normal. If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

It seems to me that Steve is leaning towards fun and gameplay mechanics rather than realism. This isn't automatically a bad thing, but it is a little odd.

[forsaken1111]

It seems to me that Steve is leaning towards fun and gameplay mechanics rather than realism. This isn't automatically a bad thing, but it is a little odd.

Not a bad thing at all. I just wish it were an interesting game mechanic rather than one which has no point other than to slow you down or annoy you. In Distant Worlds, black holes have a gravitational pull as well and will destroy ships, but that game also allows you to build resort or science stations near black holes, so people will pay to enjoy the spectacular view or you will get a bonus to research in certain fields. Nebula in Distant Worlds slow down your ship and will drain ship shields or in some cases damage ships over time, but they have gas clouds which are harvested via gas mining station. Putting a feature in the game for the sole purpose of acting as annoying space terrain is a bit dull.

[Astronomygoon]

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

[TwilightWalker]

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

Three Kilometers? Makes the people protesting the LHC seem even sillier now...

Also: Did...did you sign up just to reply to that? 

[Tarran]

Also: Did...did you sign up just to reply to that? 

A quick research says no; he signed up 7 days ago.

[Astronomygoon]

Three Kilometers? Makes the people protesting the LHC seem even sillier now...

Also: Did...did you sign up just to reply to that? 

*laughs* Nah, I just don't post too much is all. But yea, the LHC protests were always silly and grounded in very shaky reasoning. More energetic reactions happen up in the atmosphere, yet here we are.

[Thexor]

Three Kilometers? Makes the people protesting the LHC seem even sillier now...

Also: Did...did you sign up just to reply to that? 

*laughs* Nah, I just don't post too much is all. But yea, the LHC protests were always silly and grounded in very shaky reasoning. More energetic reactions happen up in the atmosphere, yet here we are.

Still, as humanity has taught me time and time again, lack of any logical reason for a protest is hardly a reason to not protest. 

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

Indeed, if the Sun converted spontaneously into a black hole, the planets would remain unchanged, though I don't think it's for the reasons you're expecting - in fact, assuming there were no explosive side-effects of the sudden transformation, there would be exactly zero effect on the planets. The mass of the Sun would remain unchanged regardless of whether it collapsed into a singularity, and as any high school physics student knows, F = G*m₁*m₂/r². No factor in that equation has changed, hence the newly-formed black hole would trivially have no effect on the planet's orbits. Same if the Sun suddenly expanded its radius several times (while keeping the same mass) - radius of the body is irrelevant.

I'd also like to point out that claiming the black hole's Schwarzschild Radius equals its area of effect is silly - that's the region at which, simplistically, light can no longer escape. You'd absolutely feel the gravitational effect of the black hole outside that radius - heck, we on Earth technically feel the pull of the black hole in the centre of our galaxy, although it's an insanely weak effect at this distance (remember the r^2 factor?). A black hole is, outside the Schwarzschild Radius, nothing but a mass with a standard gravitational field.


Fundamentally, the black hole mechanics proposed by Steve are fairly unrealistic, mostly because of the way Trans-Newtonian materials are said to affect mass - applying a maximum velocity to spacecraft in particular. Logically, a black hole should apply an acceleration to objects within its radius equal to G*m_{black hole}/r² at distance r from the centre of the singularity. Steve has converted acceleration to velocity because his ships have instantaneous (infinite) acceleration and finite velocity (whereas real space ships have relativistically-limited speeds but extremely limited accelerations), which is pretty much the only way black holes could be implemented with the current system. He's changed it from a pull towards the black hole into a global slowdown, which is obviously much easier to code but, frankly, more or less a letdown (it implies that black holes are some kind of celestial mud...). And finally, he's made the black hole's effects equal regardless of proximity to the black hole, which is downright silly (it'd be much more tactically interesting if, say, the maximum approach distance of a ship to the black hole was limited by its speed - faster ships can get closer before being trapped and sucked in!).

[Bremen]

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

A common misconception, and one I had to argue with my physics teacher on. The Sun doesn't just produce gravity from its core; it's not a point source. If the sun were to collapse into a black hole, the gravitational effect on Earth would increase and alter the orbit, but not by much. The actual gravitational pull wouldn't increase, but it would all be pulling in one direction instead of spread along a small arc.

Anyways, just so this post is more than just me splitting hairs, I am as mentioned in the LP thread considering a multiplayer Aurora LP in a similar style, with those playing each nation giving me general instructions while I play things out. I've got a scenario nearly complete (has the buildings, technologies, and ships set up for each nation, just needs polishing), but am currently waiting to see if the current thread is dead.

A few details: Four nations, set up to encourage trading and diplomacy. US has the biggest starting military, European Union the most wealth, China the most population and production, and Japan the best tech (and all their mines start automated). There's a 30 year treaty enforced the prohibits fighting on or near Earth, to keep things from completely deteriorating, but I expect space colonization to get very Machiavellian.

[forsaken1111]

Anyways, just so this post is more than just me splitting hairs, I am as mentioned in the LP thread considering a multiplayer Aurora LP in a similar style, with those playing each nation giving me general instructions while I play things out. I've got a scenario nearly complete (has the buildings, technologies, and ships set up for each nation, just needs polishing), but am currently waiting to see if the current thread is dead.

A few details: Four nations, set up to encourage trading and diplomacy. US has the biggest starting military, European Union the most wealth, China the most population and production, and Japan the best tech (and all their mines start automated). There's a 30 year treaty enforced the prohibits fighting on or near Earth, to keep things from completely deteriorating, but I expect space colonization to get very Machiavellian.

Sign me up as the US, I totally want to play.

[Bremen]

Anyways, just so this post is more than just me splitting hairs, I am as mentioned in the LP thread considering a multiplayer Aurora LP in a similar style, with those playing each nation giving me general instructions while I play things out. I've got a scenario nearly complete (has the buildings, technologies, and ships set up for each nation, just needs polishing), but am currently waiting to see if the current thread is dead.

A few details: Four nations, set up to encourage trading and diplomacy. US has the biggest starting military, European Union the most wealth, China the most population and production, and Japan the best tech (and all their mines start automated). There's a 30 year treaty enforced the prohibits fighting on or near Earth, to keep things from completely deteriorating, but I expect space colonization to get very Machiavellian.

Sign me up as the US, I totally want to play.

I'll probably push for groups playing each nation, if only because LP experience has taught me not to count on one person.

[forsaken1111]

That's fine with me.

-idea-

We could roleplay as the shadow councils behind the puppet governments of the world.

[Thexor]

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

A common misconception, and one I had to argue with my physics teacher on. The Sun doesn't just produce gravity from its core; it's not a point source. If the sun were to collapse into a black hole, the gravitational effect on Earth would increase and alter the orbit, but not by much. The actual gravitational pull wouldn't increase, but it would all be pulling in one direction instead of spread along a small arc.

Also a misconception. You see, qualitatively, the field is spread along a small arc... but you've also got part of the sphere closer to you, which would increase the pull towards the centre. And part of the sphere is farther from you, which decreases the pull - but since it's an inverse square law, you wouldn't expect this to cancel out.

I found a neat little summary here - skip down to the section on "Field Outside a Massive Spherical Shell", and the subsequent "Field Outside a Solid Sphere" which follows directly from the previous result. The net gravitational attraction is GM/r² towards the centre of the sphere, exactly what you'd get if you simply considered the sphere as a point mass.

So, no. Actually, the gravitational attraction of the black hole would remain exactly the same after collapsing from the Sun.

[Sirus]

That's fine with me.

-idea-

We could roleplay as the shadow councils behind the puppet governments of the world.

I'd be much more inclined to participate if we were in groups.

[Bremen]

If our Sun, for example, were to turn into a black hole, the orbit of the planets would remain unchanged. The horizon itself would only stretch to roughly the Sun's current radius.
</half-remembered astro 001 info>

You're half correct on that. If you do the math the event horizon would only extend about three kilometers from the singularity. But you are correct about everything else

A common misconception, and one I had to argue with my physics teacher on. The Sun doesn't just produce gravity from its core; it's not a point source. If the sun were to collapse into a black hole, the gravitational effect on Earth would increase and alter the orbit, but not by much. The actual gravitational pull wouldn't increase, but it would all be pulling in one direction instead of spread along a small arc.

Also a misconception. You see, qualitatively, the field is spread along a small arc... but you've also got part of the sphere closer to you, which would increase the pull towards the centre. And part of the sphere is farther from you, which decreases the pull - but since it's an inverse square law, you wouldn't expect this to cancel out.

I found a neat little summary here - skip down to the section on "Field Outside a Massive Spherical Shell", and the subsequent "Field Outside a Solid Sphere" which follows directly from the previous result. The net gravitational attraction is GM/r² towards the centre of the sphere, exactly what you'd get if you simply considered the sphere as a point mass.

So, no. Actually, the gravitational attraction of the black hole would remain exactly the same after collapsing from the Sun.

Wow, I am impressed. At least this means that while I was wrong, so was my physics teacher.

Of course, this means that the original claim is still wrong; if the sun were to collapse into a black hole, the gravitational force it exerts on the Earth would actually decrease! But in such a way that the net force remains exactly the same. Oh physics, how can you be so simple yet so bizarre.

[EuchreJack]

Nebula annoy me too, for similar reasons. The only thing it does is hinder you, without any interesting gameplay considerations.

Actually, nebulas are awesome, because they disable ALL missiles, and reduce sensor range proportional to the nebula strength.  Hence, nebulas are an entirely different combat environment.

Besides, nebulas are strictly optional.  They don't exist in the Real World option, and thus can be deleted with impunity when playing.  Still, precursors found in nebulas can provide an interesting change from standard precursor combat.