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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2853261 times)

Sowelu

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1200 on: February 01, 2010, 06:14:02 pm »

I wish the tab order in this game didn't suck.  It should be more sensible, and not jump from option 2 to option 4 to option 3 to option 1.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1201 on: February 01, 2010, 06:30:23 pm »

How do you tell when a PDC or a ship has its needed fighters or missiles?
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1202 on: February 01, 2010, 06:35:00 pm »

But aside from my obvious lack of technology, is there anything wrong with my ship? lets say my fighter was 480 tons and had 3 days of fuel (10,000 liters).

please note that I'm not changing my fighter so don't comment on it, comment on the carrier.


And the tab thing isn't actually that bad. everything in a row stays in that row, if you choose something from the top row, that entire row will move down to the first row. It makes sense for how many tabs are fitted into one window.

How do you tell when a PDC or a ship has its needed fighters or missiles?
Go to class design,and look at the ordnance/fighters tab. Although i can't figure out how to assign fighters.
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Sowelu

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1203 on: February 01, 2010, 06:37:36 pm »

And the tab thing isn't actually that bad. everything in a row stays in that row, if you choose something from the top row, that entire row will move down to the first row. It makes sense for how many tabs are fitted into one window.

That's not what I meant.  Press 'tab' and watch what controls it cycles through.  Sometimes the order it uses is pretty brain-damaged.
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Zangi

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1204 on: February 01, 2010, 07:12:44 pm »

Ok, i fail hard at making carriers....

Code: [Select]
Portland class Carrier    47050 tons     4628 Crew     5023.8 BP      TCS 941  TH 850  EM 0
903 km/s     Armour 1-116     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 91     PPV 44
Annual Failure Rate: 218%    IFR: 3%    Maint Capacity 5405 MSP    Max Repair 45 MSP    Est Time: 9.99 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 24000 tons     

Nuclear Thermal Engine E10 (34)    Power 25    Fuel Use 100%    Signature 25    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 11.5 billion km   (147 days at full power)

15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 180,000km     TS: 3000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 3    ROF 10        6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
Twin 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 96-3000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 3000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 30    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S20-R100 (1)     GPS 2000     Range 20.0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S10-R1 (1)     GPS 10     Range 100k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes


It looks like your designing ships outside of your technical means.

You are still in the very early tech stage.  Does your carrier need to be that big?  By the time that you could actually build it and finally build it...  which would be years without SMing... it would be obsolete...  and still have cost you a load of resources...

You also have to take into account your military shipyard, can it build something that big right now or anytime soon?

Another problem is armor.... it practically has none... doesn't take much to get past the armor and straight into the internal....
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1205 on: February 01, 2010, 07:16:30 pm »

So....i want a horrible carrier to go with my horrible fighters. What I'm asking is not if the tech is good, but if the stats are. I'm gonna have a little over 50 fighters, is that enough fuel?

And dam no i don't have a military shipyard that big....My commercial shipyard however is close to 70000 so i can build my jump gate ship.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1206 on: February 01, 2010, 07:20:17 pm »

So....i want a horrible carrier to go with my horrible fighters. What I'm asking is not if the tech is good, but if the stats are. I'm gonna have a little over 50 fighters, is that enough fuel?

And dam no i don't have a military shipyard that big....My commercial shipyard however is close to 70000 so i can build my jump gate ship.

The stats are terrible because your tech is to low to build something like this. My baltimore mk2 can take this sucker out.

As they are smaller, faster, and the CIWS should swat your fighters with little issue. For shits and giggle, I'll make a carrier and see what I can come up with.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1207 on: February 01, 2010, 07:22:08 pm »

You really need to take a better look at what I'm asking.
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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1208 on: February 01, 2010, 07:30:14 pm »

Area PD is good, you just have to research decent ranged weapons for it. Final Defense only gets you 1 shot and ONLY against missiles targeted at that specific ship. Area PD gives you multiple shots, depending on the speed of the missile and the range of your PD - and most importantly, it allows all the ships in the group to defend eachother. Capacitor recharge rate 6 (only costs 59,000 points all total, 60,000 if you're conventional start) lets you have 15cm weapons with 5s refire, so you can use them for PD with double the range. Then the same level of Meson focusing (costs another 59,000 points) would let you get 15cm mesons with a range of 180,000 km. Lasers would be double that, but I always prefer mesons since they ignore missile armor and are always a 1 hit kill on missiles. The 15cm guns are only size 4, so 33% increase in size over the size 3 but the double range makes them far more useful.

For instance, lets say you have 5 PD guns with a range of 180,000 on your ship. An enemy fleet sends a volley of missiles going 55,000 km/s (pretty fast at that tech level I believe). Final defense would mean only 5 of the PD guns would fire, getting in one shot each at 10,000 km right before the missiles hit. Lets make it tough and assume the missiles are at 185,000 range before they enter your weapon range, so they'll be entering with a 50km advantage. Area defense would mean that your guns would fire at 130,000, 75,000, and 20,000 - giving you 15 shots at the missiles. Move into a fleet situation and the advantage grows - say you have 2 ships. If the volley was targeted at ship #1, only he would use final defense and you still only get 5 shots. With area defense, both ships would fire as it approached - giving you 30 shots. If you have a reasonably fast ship you can sometimes even get in an extra shot by flying away from the missiles so that they close slower.

I still use the 10cm mesons on occasion for final defensive fire. For those you can make them cheap like this:
Code: [Select]
Max Range 15,000 km     Rate of Fire: 5 seconds     Focus Modifier: 1
Meson Cannon Size: 3 HS    Meson Cannon HTK: 1
Power Requirement: 3    Power Recharge per 5 Secs: 3
Cost: 3    Crew: 30
Materials Required: 0.6x Duranium  0.6x Boronide  1.8x Corundium

Then just slap it on a turret and add a size 1 fire control set to 25% size/range and 4x size/tracking speed. It makes a good "CIWS" system using armor piercing mesons instead of gauss, which can be a lifesaver against armored missiles. Final defensive fire has its place, but don't neglect area defense.
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Metalax

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1209 on: February 01, 2010, 07:39:22 pm »

Ok, i fail hard at making carriers....

Portland class Carrier    47050 tons     4628 Crew     5023.8 BP      TCS 941  TH 850  EM 0
903 km/s     Armour 1-116     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 91     PPV 44
Annual Failure Rate: 218%    IFR: 3%    Maint Capacity 5405 MSP    Max Repair 45 MSP    Est Time: 9.99 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 24000 tons     

Nuclear Thermal Engine E10 (34)    Power 25    Fuel Use 100%    Signature 25    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 11.5 billion km   (147 days at full power)

15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 180,000km     TS: 3000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 3    ROF 10        6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
Twin 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 96-3000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 3000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 30    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S20-R100 (1)     GPS 2000     Range 20.0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S10-R1 (1)     GPS 10     Range 100k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes


Main things I'm seeing is relatively low maintenance supplies, and very low fuel storage for a carrier. Speed could do with a boost but that will mainly come through teching up the engines.

Put some armour on the design. Level one armour is for most purposes effectively unarmoured, I'd suggest at least level 3 for any military design(except fighters) that isn't going to be actively in combat, with at least 5 for for actual fighting ships.

You might want to add another active sensor with a resolution of 10 in order to pick up enemy fighters.

In addition you will want at least basic thermal and EM sensors.

The point about your military shipyards not being large enough to build this for several years is valid, at present you would carry 50 of your fighters on this. I'd suggest halving the hangar space in order to produce a carrier you will be able to actually build much sooner, as well as being significantly faster.

Personally I'd strip off the 15cm lasers as a carrier shouldn't be getting into range for them to be used anyway.

I'd also add at least a second fire control for your turrets. At the moment all four will have to fire at the same target, which can result in you getting swamped by missiles.

Here is an example carrier using pretty much basic starting tech frokm a new game. Only improvements are engines up to ion, composite armour, and level 3 capacitors.

Code: [Select]
Broadsword class Carrier    20000 tons     1303 Crew     2066.8 BP      TCS 400  TH 600  EM 0
1500 km/s     Armour 3-65     Shields 0-0     Sensors 5/5/0/0     Damage Control Rating 20     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 160%    IFR: 2.2%    Maint Capacity 15292 MSP    Max Repair 30 MSP    Est Time: 24.74 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 5000 tons     

Ion Engine E10 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 100%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,300,000 Litres    Range 117.0 billion km   (902 days at full power)

Twin 10cm C3 Infrared Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 30,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 1    ROF 5        3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S12 30-5000 (4)    Max Range: 60,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     83 67 50 33 17 0 0 0 0 0
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (8)     Total Power Output 24    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S10-R1 (1)     GPS 10     Range 100k km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor S10-R100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 10.0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S10-R20 (1)     GPS 200     Range 2.0m km    Resolution 20
Thermal Sensor TH1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

In game I wouldn't really consider making a carrier at this low of a tech level as it will be a few years for the military space yard to get up to 20000, which is the minimum size I'd design dedicated carriers at. Improvements in the tech dropping the size of the fire-controls and armour as well as shifting maintenance and fuel to dedicated support ships would allow a doubling of the hangar space on a carrier of this size by the time I was ready to actually build one.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:41:19 pm by Metalax »
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Virex

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1210 on: February 01, 2010, 07:43:43 pm »

Ok, i fail hard at making carriers....

Portland class Carrier    47050 tons     4628 Crew     5023.8 BP      TCS 941  TH 850  EM 0
903 km/s     Armour 1-116     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 91     PPV 44
Annual Failure Rate: 218%    IFR: 3%    Maint Capacity 5405 MSP    Max Repair 45 MSP    Est Time: 9.99 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 24000 tons     

Nuclear Thermal Engine E10 (34)    Power 25    Fuel Use 100%    Signature 25    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 11.5 billion km   (147 days at full power)

15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 180,000km     TS: 3000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 3    ROF 10        6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
Twin 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 96-3000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 3000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 30    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S20-R100 (1)     GPS 2000     Range 20.0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S10-R1 (1)     GPS 10     Range 100k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes


I sugest cutting down on the hangar size, your current desing can carry almost 50 fighters (500 tons each, max). reducing that to 10 fighters and building 5 of thesewould be better, since they'd be considrably faster.

Also, your carriers have combat capacities, but no armour to speak off. They're soft and squishy targets if anything gets close enough to attack them and any single missile with a decent warhed that gets trough is going to toroughly fuck them up. And you don't want to get such a big vessle fucked up.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1211 on: February 01, 2010, 07:46:53 pm »

I think i;m going to start over, but should i do that now, or jump and try to fight something first?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1212 on: February 01, 2010, 07:47:15 pm »

Code: [Select]
Pegasus class Carrier    36250 tons     2140 Crew     5066.5 BP      TCS 725  TH 2520  EM 750
3475 km/s     Armour 3-97     Shields 25-375     Sensors 24/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 36     PPV 46
Annual Failure Rate: 292%    IFR: 4.1%    Maint Capacity 4145 MSP    Max Repair 102 MSP    Est Time: 4.78 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 10000 tons     Magazine 2105   

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.6 (30)    Power 84    Fuel Use 66%    Signature 84    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 1,450,000 Litres    Range 109.1 billion km   (363 days at full power)
Delta R375/15 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  150 Litres per day

PDC Meson Quad Turret (2x4)    Range 15,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 12-16     RM 1.5    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CIWS-160 (5x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Meson Fire Control S04 32-16000 H70 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2)     Total Power Output 32    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Com Mk2 Active Search Sensor S48-R100 (70%) (1)     GPS 4800     Range 48.0m km    Resolution 100
Carrier Missile Sensor (1)     GPS 5.28     Range 53k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH3-24 (70%) (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

This is my carrier with my current tech. It can carry 25 of the viper fighter I posted ealier, has two meson PD for area defence and 5 CIWS. The missile sensor will also double as a FAC/Fighter sensor. It doesn't have a jump drive so it needs a tender that from this design would need to be a fuel and supply ship with possible a flag bridge as well. Its not meant to act on its own, and has the speed and fuel to keep up with balitmore mk2.

It'll take about two years to get one shipyard the size to build it. And five to construct it. It'll be seven years before I see one of these things built, way before then it'll be out of date as within two years I'll have better armor, shields, and engines.

This tells me I am not yet capable of building this type of ship in terms of industrial power, but just barely able to with my tech.
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Zangi

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1213 on: February 01, 2010, 07:52:00 pm »

You really need to take a better look at what I'm asking.

No.

Armor is lacking.  Get at the very least 10 armor... I'd shoot for 15-20 since it is big... more important if you want less ships in a fleet...
Speed is slow.  Shoot for 2,000km/s...  try not to go under 1,000km/s....
Try to cut the size down to take 40 fighters instead.  (I recommend 20-30...)

Code: [Select]
Twin 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1)    [b]Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s[/b]     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control- Increase Max Range to 90km(or a little more)
Fire Control- Increase TS to at least be equal to 15,000km/s...  (Or lower TS of the Laser Turret)

Doesn't have to be 1 ship.... you could build 2 or 3 or more...
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #1214 on: February 01, 2010, 07:56:28 pm »

Sry, that was directed towards Mr.Wiggles, he told me everything i just said i didn't care about.

Also, when you load missiles in the Ordnance/Fighters tab in class design, does that show how many missiles i want it to carry? Will it automatically resupply missiles at my colony when it runs out? How do you load fighters?
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