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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2839960 times)

Shooer

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15840 on: February 09, 2015, 11:55:10 pm »

Speaking of carriers, I accidentally left that same yard expanding.  Caught it at just over 200k, and the civilian yard for a jump tender for it is almost 400k.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is only ever going to be one Hatcheman, there will only need to ever be one Hatchetman.
A Locust to give you an idea of what it will be carrying.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Only have 5k neutronium left in stockpile on my home world, and only a 0.1 deposit left in my home system.  The first out of home system colonization target has .8 neutronium in it's system, so yay.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15841 on: February 10, 2015, 12:54:50 am »

That's what I'm saying, though. The extra fuel space should put you right about at that 250t mark, which is a great standard: 4 fighters per hanger, easy peasy.  :P

But that is extra weight and thus less speed. Remember these are up-in-your-face laser fighters. Why decrease the chance they are going to survive for a pretty number?

Speaking of carriers, I accidentally left that same yard expanding.  Caught it at just over 200k, and the civilian yard for a jump tender for it is almost 400k.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is only ever going to be one Hatcheman, there will only need to ever be one Hatchetman.

I know people keep saying to keep the maintenance life and fuel low for a combat ship.....but that just worries me. At 4000 speed isn't that thing going to take it's entire fuel supply just to get to the next system??? And the maintenance... What if the engines start breaking while you are low on fuel? It seems like it will exponentially become a problem.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 01:04:14 am by Micro102 »
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Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15842 on: February 10, 2015, 01:03:01 am »

Yeah, my doctrines for missile fighters and beam fighters are completely different. Missile fighters are skirmishers; the carriers launch from very far away, ideally undetected; the fighters get in, they fire from long range, and they fly back to reload, also ideally undetected. They benefit from being small; small fighters are difficult to detect at range, and more fighters means more missile salvos so it's harder for point defense to take them all down.

Beam fighters, comparatively, are absolute no frills warships. You offload everything possible onto the carrier; engineering spaces, fuel bunkerage, living quarters, sensors, etc. Their engines sacrifice fuel efficiency for power, and then they only get enough engine tonnage to bring them up to the necessary speed. Beam fighters have one job; get in close and either win or die. Who cares if they run out of fuel and suffer spontaneous reactor explosions hours after you launch them.  Beam fighters don't make multiple sorties; victory or Valhalla, they charge the enemy and either win or die. What matters is you squeeze the capability of a 2000 ton normal warship into a 400-500 ton fighter. They don't benefit as much from small size as a missile fighter does; it doesn't matter if your fighter is 5 tons, it's going to be detected long before beam range, so stealth is pretty much useless. I usually go for somewhat larger beam fighters than missile fighters for that reason.

Here's my beam fighter in my current game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offloading everything to the mothership means a leaner, faster warship than would otherwise be possible. If a group of fighters can close with the enemy, they can fight far more efficiently than a conventional warship for their given tonnage. Of course, closing with the enemy is still a problem, but that's a problem for any beam warships in Aurora.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15843 on: February 10, 2015, 01:07:37 am »

Huh, why not use lasers? If they are up close and personal I would use the weapon that does the most damage at close range. Or are you just teching heavy into railguns?
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Shooer

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15844 on: February 10, 2015, 01:16:42 am »

Rail guns actually do comparable damage to lasers.  It's just that it's spread across the multiple shots that it makes over the lasers one big shot.
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Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15845 on: February 10, 2015, 01:21:20 am »

Huh, why not use lasers? If they are up close and personal I would use the weapon that does the most damage at close range. Or are you just teching heavy into railguns?

Several reasons, actually:

Railguns do more damage, per ton and power cost, than lasers. A 10cm railgun does 4x1 damage, a 10cm laser does 3 damage.
Railguns fire multiple times in a round; a 10cm railgun fires 4 shots, and can therefor destroy 4 missiles when used for point defense, whereas a laser only fires once. The main weakness of beam fighters is closing to beam range in the face of missile fire, so being able to shoot down 4 times as many missiles is a huge advantage.

Compare this to the advantages of lasers:
Lasers have higher range, which is less important for fighters; generally a beam fighter wants to be as close as possible to the enemy. There are exceptions; a laser fighter can do better at staying outside of gauss point defense range, for instance, but generally I feel missiles are a greater threat to beam fighters than point defense weapons.
Lasers pierce armor better. Again, not as big an advantage for fighters; if the opponent has 6 layers of armor, 3 damage clumps aren't going to be much better at piercing armor than 3 1 damage clumps. Note that this is a different story when it comes to large weapons on capital ships; a 24 damage laser is much more likely to penetrate armor than 4x 8 damage railgun hits.

If I'm designing a big hulking beam battlecruiser, I definitely prefer lasers; the range and armor piercing advantages are pretty big (and that doesn't even factor in the ability to make spinal lasers, but currently not spinal railguns). But most of their advantages are minimized when used in a small size on a fighter, while the advantages of a railgun are maximized.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 01:24:09 am by Bremen »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15846 on: February 10, 2015, 01:59:45 am »

When it comes to low bore size E/KW, railguns are almost universally superior to lasers, barring four specific points:

1. Lasers have slightly longer effective ranges, which makes them more suitable in certain tight spots, predominantly engaging Swarm Queens with low-tech ships, since that is sometimes enough to let you kite them without being hit back.

2. I recall a very long time ago (I believe in one of Steve's campaign AARs) reading that lasers are more effective against plasma torpedoes than other PD weapons.

3. For very light, disposable fighters, as lasers can be size-reduced while railguns cannot.

4. When turreted weapons are necessary.

Apart from that, low bore size lasers are inferior due to the nature of their damage model, just as high bore size lasers are superior. It basically comes down to a question of penetration: if a laser is strong enough to punch through armor reliably, it is the best available, due to the relatively high proportion of damage dealt to internals, as well as the fact that every shot from the get-go does vital damage; if it is not, then it is the worst, particularly against very large ships, given the relatively low odds of any given shot striking an already damage armor column versus the sandpapering effect of railguns. Though this has changed somewhat with the introduction of the shock mechanic.

That's what I'm saying, though. The extra fuel space should put you right about at that 250t mark, which is a great standard: 4 fighters per hanger, easy peasy.  :P

But that is extra weight and thus less speed. Remember these are up-in-your-face laser fighters. Why decrease the chance they are going to survive for a pretty number?
Because that pretty number equates to no wasted tonnage on your carriers. Hanger decks have exactly 1000t of capacity and occupy 1,150t of volume on the carrier. If your fighters are 205t each, you're going to need to carry literally hundreds of them to avoid having wasted space, which leads into a different sort of inefficiency. Carrier efficiency trumps fighter efficiency; you're going to lose fighters regardless when you stick them in beam range, and they're a lot cheaper to replace than carriers.

--

On the whole, I completely disagree with the doctrine of highly dependent beam fighters. If they're so heavily combat-oriented that they require close support from their carriers, you might as well send in blocks of armor and guns and save the expense of replacing your carriers and fighters after every battle. If I was going to do something like that, I'd at least switch to mesons so that they might accomplish something without going full Zerg, and probably just leave them hanging in the wind to get the carriers out of Dodge. The wet-navy carrier standard of over-the-horizon strikes translates remarkably well to this sort of space combat; if you intentionally design your fleet composition such that your carriers regularly spend time close to enemy task groups, you deserve what will eventually happen to them :|.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15847 on: February 10, 2015, 02:12:13 am »

On the whole, I completely disagree with the doctrine of highly dependent beam fighters. If they're so heavily combat-oriented that they require close support from their carriers, you might as well send in blocks of armor and guns and save the expense of replacing your carriers and fighters after every battle. If I was going to do something like that, I'd at least switch to mesons so that they might accomplish something without going full Zerg, and probably just leave them hanging in the wind to get the carriers out of Dodge. The wet-navy carrier standard of over-the-horizon strikes translates remarkably well to this sort of space combat; if you intentionally design your fleet composition such that your carriers regularly spend time close to enemy task groups, you deserve what will eventually happen to them :|.

The carriers don't have to get close. Sure, the fighters only have a billion km range, but the important part is they don't need to save fuel for a round trip; if they win, the carriers can come meet them. If they lose, then there's no need to pick them up.

Sensor coverage is provided by special purpose fighters (that split off before closing to beam range; there's no need to expose them to direct fire weapons when even a tiny sensor has a much further range.)

Mesons are an excellent alternative to railguns, though; it basically means sacrificing anti-missile capability in exchange for hitting armored ships much, much harder.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15848 on: February 10, 2015, 10:03:14 am »

Only 1b km range is still tight for my tastes, given the chasing they're liable to do, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

It'd probably work best to leaven the mesons with railguns (or vice versa) rather than having homogenous squadrons, if you're set on using beam fighters.
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15849 on: February 10, 2015, 01:04:13 pm »

The way I see it, if the fighters need to chase the ships, they are running away. I doubt they are faster than the fighters, but if they are running you either won the defensive fight, or are free to move to your destination and engage them again, and can pull them back anyway.
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Bremen

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15850 on: February 10, 2015, 01:35:38 pm »

Also, if you want to extend your fighters range, you can use a variant on in flight refueling by including a few fighters with fuel tanks instead of weapons. That way the effectiveness of your actual combat fighters isn't compromised by the weight of surplus fuel tanks, and the fuel fighter can split off before reaching combat range.

Just one fighter with fuel tanks instead of weapons and armor could hold enough to completely refuel 40 or 50 combat fighters.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15851 on: February 10, 2015, 04:41:13 pm »

So basically Kadeshi Swarmers and Fuel Pods from Homeworld; fair enough.
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iceball3

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15852 on: February 10, 2015, 05:57:44 pm »

Fuel pods? Fuel pods... wow that is actually an excellent idea! I think i should adopt it into my fleet doctrine, yeah.
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Micro102

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15853 on: February 10, 2015, 11:43:31 pm »

Dam you and your innovation! How am I suppose to consolidate my min-maxing and starwars space battle fantasies now?!
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Rince Wind

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #15854 on: February 11, 2015, 08:00:03 am »

I have found "unusual stellar radiation" on a planet, and it says "Energy 90%" in the summary, which is different from the other anomalies I have encountert so far. Those all give a bonus to a specific branch of science, but what does the energy thing mean?
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