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Author Topic: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games  (Read 2840816 times)

Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14235 on: February 05, 2014, 02:27:03 am »

   So yeah I have a couple more of my videos for my LP up and I have gotten to the point where I need to think about defense. I haven't played with missiles since before you needed to design the missile engine before hand. I made one in my latest video but I don't think its necessarily a good one. I have Ion Drive tech right now, should I go for the next level or will this do for a starting missile. Also what size should I make my engine. I whipped up a .1 size engine which honestly was more just to show the missile design window but that definitely seems too small. I plan to research some more missile tech but in the end I will probably be designing a AMM style missile and then a 4 strength missile (unless you all advise otherwise) for my defenses. I mostly just want a few combat capable ships on my side of the JP when I go through. Anyway links to my videos:
Fourth video is up now. Sorry for missing a day or so.
   And the fifth video is up. I manage to design my gravisurvey ship class and then muddle around and I think mess up with designing a missile engine, though that is only in after throught.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Sheb

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14236 on: February 05, 2014, 02:46:04 am »

Just drop more of you .1 engine as needed, it's not as if fuel efficiency was what you're looking for in a missile.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14237 on: February 05, 2014, 03:14:36 am »

   I guess I can pop them on till I find the size I need and make that. I am not as you point out looking for fuel efficiency but I am looking to squeeze all I can out of it and just making the correct size engine lets me do so. Also there isn't a .01 engine size so if I want an engine of say .23 I would need to custom make it anyway.
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Quote
Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

MarcAFK

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14238 on: February 05, 2014, 07:43:08 am »

Maybe they disagree with the ethics of genetic manipulation of humans? I'm thinking there be a war between those fanatical loonies and the population of Mercury/Earth in the future.

Gee, you wouldn't be a fan of the game
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
would you?
Haven't heard if it before, but it sounds like something I would have loved back in the 90's, reminds me heavily of Aurora.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

EuchreJack

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14239 on: February 05, 2014, 06:06:49 pm »

Just drop more of you .1 engine as needed, it's not as if fuel efficiency was what you're looking for in a missile.
   I guess I can pop them on till I find the size I need and make that. I am not as you point out looking for fuel efficiency but I am looking to squeeze all I can out of it and just making the correct size engine lets me do so. Also there isn't a .01 engine size so if I want an engine of say .23 I would need to custom make it anyway.

I disagree.  Fuel Efficiency essentially determines range for missiles.  I'd also suggest waiting one more engine tech before designing missiles unless you really need them.  At Ion Tech, you're basically making 1-point damage missiles if you actually want to hit anything with them.

What you really need to do is wait for Flying Dice to respond.  Now there is an expert on missile design!

Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14240 on: February 05, 2014, 06:31:15 pm »

   Yes having Flying Dice chime in would be great but I am not really looking for range right now. The combat distance I will probably be dealing with is right around the jump point. I don't think I can make a true combat force but I do want a small defense fleet around a jump point when I first go through. In on of my test games the first system I jumped to had an NPR that I didn't see but saw me going through the JP. If it had been hostile that would have been lights out for me. As it was I just ended up with a couple bushels of ships orbiting my world in peace but I don't trust my luck.
   As for the tip on waiting another engine tech that seems fine. If anything else it will also make anything I put those missiles on either harder to hit or in the least needing less engines.

   Also in a side note, what is wrong with the people in my empire? I have less then a few hundred named leader types yet every month like clockwork one of them seems to get hurt or diseased. Its not just a specific game either, they just seem to all have the worst luck with accidents and work part time at a daycare center or a school.
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Quote
Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Flying Dice

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14241 on: February 05, 2014, 06:45:59 pm »

You flatter me. :V

But yeah, it depends on what you're wanting from the missile, and frankly I haven't played recently or much since just after the big drive overhaul, so my missile design thought process might be a bit outdated. With that out of the way...

If you're going for a bog-standard WH-4 ASM (which, fittingly enough, is what I tend to use until I have good enough tech to fit in WH-9 without going up more than one HS), you'll want to balance your drive and fuel allotments to reach a specific sweet zone. The general rule of thumb is that less fuel is better, especially early on when all of your other components are going to be volume-hungry. Basically, it's the first of the "essential" parts to sacrifice (as opposed to secondary things like tiny sensors for secondary lock-on after target destruction), because fuel has the lowest effect per HS on performance.

I'll pull up the campaign I'm running right now as an example of relatively low-tech missile design; it's not too long after a fairly typical T/N start, and these are the techs I'm working with:
Quote
Warhead: 4/MSP
Agility: 48/MSP
Fuel Eff.: 0.7

I designed two missile drives while working on my current generation of ASMs; here's the one I used:
Quote from: Combat Avionics I-3 Missile Drive
Engine Power: 3
Total Size: 2 MSP

Incidentally, although it's something of a flavor thing, I'd suggest inventing fluff industrial firms associated with certain types of module, and creating series designations to help keep track of things. That's a simple one; I meaning that it's the first in the series of drives, 3 being the total engine power. So if I make another one of the same generation with 2 power, it'd be the I-2, while a 12 power third-generation drive from that line would be the III-12. Anyhow, let's leave the diversion.


That's generally a safe ratio to go with on your drive; the missile I'm using is a Size-4, so the single drive represents 50% of the tonnage. Your speed is always going to be the most important aspect of missile design; it doesn't matter how big the warhead is or how long the range is if it can't catch enemies or make it through PD.

Here's the total design. This was actually the first proper ASM I produced in this game, and is fairly representative of a "normal" ASM for a TL2-4ish empire. The name is in the format [Series Name] [Role (AS = Anti-Ship, as opposed to FM {Fighter Missile, which would typically be short-ranged, high-WH}, AM {Anti-Missile}, PB {Planetary Bombardment, if I ever feel the need to saturation-bomb someone's homeworld}, etc.][Missile Size in MSP] [Model/Series Number]

Quote from: Sabre AS4 I
Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 15000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 155 minutes   Range: 139.2m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.518
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 300%   3k km/s 100%   5k km/s 60%   10k km/s 30%
Materials Required:    1x Tritanium   1.518x Gallicite   Fuel x500

Development Cost for Project: 252RP

And here are the MSP allotments:
Quote
WH: 1 MSP
Engine: 2 MSP
Fuel Capacity: 0.2 MSP
Agility: 0.8 MSP
All else: Nothing.

So we've got a size-4 ASM with WH-4 (if you're a stickler for the efficient square-only warhead size, this is a must; 1-4-9-16-25 is your usual sequence). The speed isn't stupendous for an ASM, but it's acceptable given the tech. The range is plenty good for the tech level, especially considering that an active sensor with a range much more than that would be prohibitively large for a normal missile ship at this TL.

The Agility tends to be the finicky part of missile design, and it's harder to fiddle with now that missiles are predesigned rather than another variable, but basically what you want to do is to design your drive (with your best available engine power modifier, obviously; and again, 50% of the total size tends to be a good rule of thumb), plop it and your WH allocation on, and then fiddle with the Agility variable until you get the optimal Chance to Hit. For this tech a 300/100/60/30% spread is pretty good, and you aren't going to get anywhere near perfect on-paper accuracy until much higher tech (and even then you aren't assured of a 100% hit rate).

After that, figure out whatever you have between your current MSP value and the next highest round number, and drop that into fuel. Typically this should be pretty small, unless you're explicitly designing a LRM, or a MIRV that'll launch micromissiles at a set range, or an unarmed sensor drone. Once you reach a certain point your tech will be efficient enough for you to put a fractional bit of MSP into a sensor to let your missiles lock-on to new targets near their current location if they lose lock, which helps increase your fire efficiency against groups of enemies.

Hope that helped!  :)


EDIT: If you're looking for JP defense, that's one of the places where I'd honestly advocate a fleet comp very heavy on the E/KW; it's pretty much the only place where they'll be guaranteed a favorable fight. You can leaven them with mid-ranged missile support ships, too, or just go for close-ranged Fuck You missiles with almost no range and large warheads, in which case you would probably want to go for more disposable platforms; think FACs equipped with a block of size-12 box launchers or something similar.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 06:49:47 pm by Flying Dice »
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

firsal

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14242 on: February 07, 2014, 07:21:38 am »

Question: How do I design a missile? I can't seem to find it on the design screen.
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MarcAFK

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14243 on: February 07, 2014, 07:23:55 am »

Theres a button underneath that says "missiles", note you need to design a missile engine first, ALWAY use the highest possible multiplier, I suggest making a .1 size and a .5 size engine for starters then using as many as necessesary.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

firsal

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14244 on: February 07, 2014, 07:36:14 am »

Theres a button underneath that says "missiles", note you need to design a missile engine first, ALWAY use the highest possible multiplier, I suggest making a .1 size and a .5 size engine for starters then using as many as necessesary.

On what screen?
Also, what fire control systems would I need for a railgun system? Is it beam fire control?
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Mini

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14245 on: February 07, 2014, 08:35:46 am »

On what screen?
The research screen.
Also, what fire control systems would I need for a railgun system? Is it beam fire control?
Yes, only missiles use missile fire controls.
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Dutchling

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14246 on: February 07, 2014, 08:37:17 am »

Also, what fire control systems would I need for a railgun system? Is it beam fire control?
Yes, only missiles use missile fire controls.
Something to keep in mind: when someone talks about Aurora beam weapons, they generally mean beam weapons AND non-missile kinetic weapons.
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firsal

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14247 on: February 07, 2014, 08:46:02 am »

Yay thanks!

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shx

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14248 on: February 08, 2014, 04:15:14 pm »

Total noob here getting my feet wet. I skimmed through search results for "fuel" in this thread for half an hour but didn't see anything related:

I have the conditional order "refuel when below 30% on my survey ships. Yet, these conditions only trigger when I do little timesteps. Skipping 30 days ahead almost always results in one of these guys to run down to 10%. Stepping 5 seconds ahead from this point then activates the refuel order but of course it's too late and they get stranded. Net result is I spent the my last 2 hours micromanaging refuel operations. How can I avoid that (I'm just at the beginning of my game, so no high level tech is available)?
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EuchreJack

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Re: Aurora - The Dwarf Fortress of 4X Games
« Reply #14249 on: February 08, 2014, 04:27:12 pm »

Put more fuel tanks on your ships.

I'm guessing your ships only carry around 30 days of fuel, hence them going to below 30% in one month.  Increase fuel tanks so that you have roughly 180 days of fuel, and you won't see such rampant fuel loss.

Personally, I don't use the 30% threshold, as it means you're probably too far away to refuel when it triggers.  Try increasing to 40% threshold, so that you're closer to half a tank of gas away when it triggers.

Yes, this means you have to add a ton of fuel tanks to starting ship designs, optimally using the largest fuel tanks you have.  It's because fuel requirements were severely increased fairly recently in Aurora's development, so the "default" ship designs don't take that into account.
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