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[Fieari]

I like the idea of military dwarves being able to turn immigrants away, preferably with unhappy thoughts for doing so.  A noble could make the process -easier-, similar to how the manager makes ordering jobs done easier, but still nothing that you COULDN'T do by hand.  The noble would still require a military to turn them away.

I also wish death via mechanism would be noted, but I can see how that'd be complicated to determine.  Crushing death by bridges might be pretty easy, but how do you distinguish drowning from malice and drowning from falling into the river?  What distinguishes one flow from another in the new version?  Nothing...

It'd take some work.

[Retro42]

I like this idea!

I'm all for big forts and taking all comers...but sometimes I REALLY don't want those 3 untrained peasants and 5 jewelers that show up during a wave.

Mental Image:

Soldier - Profession?

Immigrant - Miner.

Soldier - Come on in!

"Next immigrant approaches"

Soldier - Profession?

Immigrant - ........Jeweler......

Soldier - Sorry we're all full up.  *Grumbles*  that's the sixth one this week.

Retro

[Tamren]

I dont think it would fit to turn away people as they arrive. How about this:

The dwarven caravan arrives every year before winter sets in, so what if they brought you a list of all the people who wish to migrate to your fortress? You could simply pick and choose the ones you want, and they would arrive next spring.

The thing is, we still need some sort of random effect, so of the people on the list, nothing is mentioned of any spouses, children or pets.  

In addition nobles arrive as they please and you will always get a random sampling of migrants that accompany every group.

Migrants can also arrive in autumn which can be quite a shock -_-

[Keilden]

Mayor:We don't take kindly to your type around here Dwarf.
Immigrant: What type? Dwarfs?
Mayor: Thats right dwarf.
Immigrant: But your a dwarf.
Mayor: Thats it BOB!!!!
BOB: ITS HAMMER TIME!!!!

[Brisbane Dave]

JT, you and I must have pretty different playstyles. In the early game I want every immigrant I can get and don't mind managing them individually. Thanks to the wiki I've never had serious food problems. No, my problem with migration has more to do with:

A. Slowing the game
B. Once I get to about 80 or so dwarves, I'm less interested in fiddling with individuals
C. Dwarves with unneeded skills wind up unhappy due to work shortages when I make them haul refuse

It's absolutely true that there are ways to get around all these. Unfortunately, other than changing the init file, they mostly involve micromanagement, which I welcome in the early game and dislike in the middle game. I can't comment on the late game because I've not got that far, but I doubt I'll like micromanagement better.

Also, and this is again down to differences in playing style, I usually don't have a military in the early going. Once I start playing more difficult maps I probably will. As it is, I don't need military dwarves until the second year.

Lastly, it just seems sensible to me that a noble would have the right to dictate immigration. Maybe rather than giving the ability to a particular noble, it could go to whichever noble is most senior, the one highest on the nobles list. That way as soon as you got one, you could start, and you wouldn't have to worry about a particular noble dying on you.

[Andrelius]

I too was thinking of this, but you put it together better. I'd love for this to be implemented.

[Angela Christine]

Who owns the fortress?

It isn't entirely clear in game, but based on the social structure it looks like the dwarfs living in the fortress do not own it.  Once the economy kicks in your initial 7 don't get any special perks for being the founders.  Individual dwarfs only own their clothes and a few knickknacks, they don't even own their bedrooms or furniture, they just hold them.

I like to think that the reason you have no control over immigration is that you don't really own the fortress, you are just . . . the architect.  Those hoards of immigrant scum?  They may be bold young adventurers looking for a better life, or they may just be the unemployed detritus of the capital, sent out to the colonies to get them out of the way.  The nobility sent to you certainly seem to be, by and large, as useless a group of ne'er do wells, dilettantes and socialites as you could ever hope to meet.  Do you think they were being rewarded with a posting to the frontier, or was it just a way to get annoying courtiers out of the capital?    

You need political clout to refuse immigrants, otherwise you may be mistaken for rebels against the crown.  The Count or Duke should have the political influence to affect immigration, but by the time you get them there usually isn't a problem with immigration any more.

I'd actually like to see a loss condition related to too many mysterious deaths in a fortress.  The frontier is dangerous, so some losses are expected, but there has to come a point where people start getting suspicious.  If there are too many deaths (perhaps some formula comparing the number of dwarf deaths to the deaths of hostiles and aggressive wildlife) the mountainhomes close the fortress due to mismanagement, in effect forcing the "abandon the fortress" option.

[JT]

If it's rebellion against the throne (which I agree it should be), that doesn't mean it should be impossible to do... and if the fortress is closed by the mountainhomes, the people on site should have every right to say "Nuh uh, I don't think so, we're declaring independence".  I think at least half of the players here try to declare independence anyway...

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Severance from your civ is an awesome idea but I think it's too advanced to do right in the games' current state.

As for being able to drawbridge\flood kill everything, I think Toady has stressed that these are issues that he plans to get around to. Likewise for the lack of consequences for death, particularly that of nobles.

For the dispute of being able to play how YOU want, I don't see why you can't. Manage your Fortress however you wan't within the structures of the world, but your actions should have ramifications. You don't have to care, but your dwarves might. (And in this case should.) You can put miasma-inducing refuse piles in your dwarves bedrooms but they might not like it, similarly you can make dwarves get killed (migrants, nobles, cripples if you really want a Nazi fortress) but your other dwarves shouldn't be oblivious to the fact and should react; unless it were possible to set up some kind of secret NKVD-esque execution chamber. Actually if (as?) dwarven justice gets refined, I'd like to see some gallows for particularly bad crimes \ repeat offenders, but that's off-topic.

 

quote:I like to think that the reason you have no control over immigration is that you don't really own the fortress, you are just . . . the architect. Those hoards of immigrant scum? They may be bold young adventurers looking for a better life, or they may just be the unemployed detritus of the capital, sent out to the colonies to get them out of the way. The nobility sent to you certainly seem to be, by and large, as useless a group of ne'er do wells, dilettantes and socialites as you could ever hope to meet. Do you think they were being rewarded with a posting to the frontier, or was it just a way to get annoying courtiers out of the capital?  

Angela, I too think you don't Own the Fortress. An interesting question to ask is who is the player in the game? I don't mean just as having a personal avatar but what defines your jurisdiction of power? Random thinking aside, I don't believe that the nobles are intended to be a burden; they're just currently broken. And though you are free to imagine so for personal immersion, I don't think nobles are being exiled to your fort, rather they get attracted as the fort prospers. Hell, I don't think the King settles in your fortress because he's being kicked out of the capitol; though it is possible that he is no longer in favor there and once again feel free to imagine it so.

I think the prospect of dwarves leaving was mentioned in another thread somewhere, and that would help immigration a lot too. The husband doesn't have to go nuts, he can leave with the wife if he chooses. Perhaps even have the wife go nuts if he chooses to stay without her. (Studio 54 scenario.) In general, dwarves including nobles should have an option to leave the fortress of their own volition too.

As for requesting which immigrants you get through a screen, perhaps to REQUEST migrants through a noble, otherwise no. The unskilled or lowly immigrants you get are not recruits sent by royal decree. They're the tired, the hungry, the poor; you just didn't build a giant statue asking for 'em.

I like the idea of designating to deny entry, and I don't think it would be so taxing on the starter-fortress either, just draft 1 dwarf and he'll get around to it eventually. You could choose to keep one immigrant at the expense of them having to deport everybody else. Maybe they'd get melancholy and drown themselves afterward   :p . Also it makes sense that an established fortress can reject incoming migrants with greater ease. It would be much harder logically for a group of 8 to deny entry to 10, than it would for a group of 120 to deny entry to 19.

Lastly, difficulty shouldn't really dictate decisions for this game with a motto like "Losing is Fun" (Within reason of course...)

P.S.- Sorry if this post is fragmented, so is my mind.

[ May 31, 2007: Message edited by: Funkadelic Jive Turkey ]

[Tamren]

That does work.

In the beginning, what do you have? A hole in the ground! Regardless you NEED those new colonists in order to turn it into a productive outpost, which presumably is the whole point.

So to start you would want anyone you could get. Later on once your city has developed a bit more you can start thinking about more civic control. Turning away dwarves whos skills you do NOT need and encouraging the immigration of likely candidates.

Something like that would require 2 way communication between you and the rest of civilization and possibly a noble. Just turning people away at the border is not going to cut it.

[Angela Christine]

Unless you give them supplies, any dwarfs you turn away are likely to die.  It is a long and dangerous journey, and by the time they arrive all that they have left is the clothes on their backs.  Unless they take the Donner party route, chances are that they will starve before they get back home.  Poor dwarfs.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Once again I re-iterate that you should be able to request skilled dwarves, but not be able to (through a screen) restrict the flow of unskilled regular migrations.

Angela, perhaps supplying them could be an option. As it stands, often WE are the Donner party. "Eck! My clothers are worn, better drown the next set of migrants." (Not that they'll wear 'em afterward anyways, half the time.)

[Retro42]

I think someone mentioned it earlier but a new noble sounds like a perfect fit for this one.

He would allow control over:

Pop Cap
Allowed Migrant types (ie: Allow Farmers? Y/N)
Import/Export restrictions (Just a thought)

Maybe name him a Diplomat or National Liason.

Retro

[Angela Christine]

On reflection, I think requests for skilled labour combined with the population cap might be better than turning away people who have already made the trip.  Once you reach the population cap you don't get any more regular immigrants (except nobles and their families).  However, via the dwarven trade guy you can request specific skilled laborers (perhaps paying a fee for the service for him to post the dwarven equivalent of a "help wanted" ad).  Then there is a chance, not a certainty, that kinds of dwarfs you requested may show up, ignoring the population cap.  (To prevent over-population you'd just set your population cap 10 or 20 lower than what you really want).  Occasionally an incursion takes out all your metal smiths, and it takes forever for peasant to train up even to "novice" level, it would be nice to be able to order some more metal smiths, even novices.

For extra goodness, it would be even better if you could a specific skill, rather than an occupation.  For example:  a carpenter will arrive with skill in either Bow making or siege engineering, but not both.  If you want an engineer it would be great to request and engineer, rather than requesting a carpenter and hoping that you get an engineer rather than a bowyer.

[Solara]

I don't necessarily want complete control over immigrants, but I've always wished there was a way (either through a noble, or the merchants) to encourage dwarves with certain skills while discouraging others.

Failing that, it'd be nice if all the useless miners and mechanics locked outside my fortress would eventually get a clue, realize they're not wanted and leave. Why would migrants want to settle down in a place where they have no food, no work, and no place to sleep anyway? In fact I'd love to see this extended to all dissatisfied dwarves - let the population control itself naturally, as it were.

Ah well, this is all wishful thinking and armchair programming, but at least I know Toady already has plans for making migrant travel more realistic.