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Author Topic: Nude model does photoshoot with no photoshop, other women call her a fake woman  (Read 29213 times)

G-Flex

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I'm just saying, there's an awful lot more blond people in Japanese animation than there are blond people in Japan.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BUGGED ME.

There is also a disproportionate amount of catholic schools.

I honestly have no idea where you get this idea from.
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The Mad Engineer

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Ehem... I'm just saying that...  well, in the literature that I'm... familiar with... uhhh.... *tugs at collar* ...there appears that there are many more catholic...  schoolgirls...  than the normal type.

Thats what I've heard, anyway.

From a friend.

Of an aquaintence.

Realmfighter

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There are things that you post, and things that you begin to post and then don't when you realize that it was stupid.

Mad, that post was of the latter types.

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Duke 2.0

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 At least you could go in depth with more of the overused devices and make it funnier in how knowledgeable you are in them despite trying to shake them off. You just didn't go far enough.
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Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
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The Mad Engineer

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There are things that you post, and things that you begin to post and then don't when you realize that it was stupid.

Mad, that post was of the latter types.



I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Jude

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Quote
You could say it creates an impossible ideal.
So what
Well, it's damaging to chase something you can never reach.

Nobody's forcing anybody to chase anything

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Creating impossible ideals and conditioning people to live up to them is psychologically unhealthy, especially when it's all the same impossible ideal (with no regard for how people actually vary in real life).
No, FOLLOWING impossible ideals and letting it affect you negatively when you can't reach them is unhealthy.

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It's also extremely dishonest! You have magazines full of models who might as well be computer-generated talking about how hot said models are. It's bad enough socializing people to all live up to the same physical standard, never mind an unreasonable one, never mind an unreasonable one that never was true to begin with for anyone.
Yeah but I repeat so what

They're trying to sell magazines not promote universal truth

I'm really not sure why people blame purveyors of media for the negative effects of people buying into that media and the messages contained in it. Where does personal responsibility enter into it?
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G-Flex

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(edit: I accidentally quoted myself instead of editing a post. Nice job.)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:08:09 am by G-Flex »
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G-Flex

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Personal responsibility is great, but where do you think your personal ideas come from in the first place? Socialization accounts for damn near all of a person's behavior, and what's expected of a person from others (and displayed in the media) has an extremely profound effect.

It's not like I'm just speculating about this; in fact, it's practically self-evident if you care to look. What people care about is very heavily influenced by what people around them care about, and living up to society's expectations is pretty important for anyone, in some form or another.

You also have to consider that a lot of this peer and media influence starts when people are very, very young. You can't exactly blame a person for how they're influenced when they're still a child. How someone's treated when they're young and the things trying to influence them will have a profound effect on their development, how they see themselves, how they think, what matters to them in life, etc. If this weren't true, the entire concept of "parenting" wouldn't work.

In our society (or any), people are conditioned (intentionally or not) to equate certain things with health/beauty (standards for beauty being often arbitrary cultural concepts to begin with), and at all stages of life are inundated with images of what IS healthy or beautiful. This affects people. Digitally altering people such that you're promoting an image that isn't even real anymore has obvious implications here; you're conditioning people to equate beauty with something that is literally impossible to achieve, not even just implausible anymore.

Even people with a ton of "personal responsibility" are affected by socialization, unless you sprang fully-formed from the head of Zeus or something.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:08:18 am by G-Flex »
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Jude

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Socialization accounts for damn near all of a person's behavior,
I'm just gonna say this is real bad psychology and you're gonna have a helluva time making a valid empirical case for it

At least if you mean it in the sense I think you do, and you probably do
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and what's expected of a person from others (and displayed in the media) has an extremely profound effect.
Ok sure but see below

Quote
It's not like I'm just speculating about this; in fact, it's practically self-evident if you care to look. What people care about is very heavily influenced by what people around them care about, and living up to society's expectations is pretty important for anyone, in some form or another.

You also have to consider that a lot of this peer and media influence starts when people are very, very young. You can't exactly blame a person for how they're influenced when they're still a child. How someone's treated when they're young and the things trying to influence them will have a profound effect on their development, how they see themselves, how they think, what matters to them in life, etc. If this weren't true, the entire concept of "parenting" wouldn't work.

In our society, people are conditioned (intentionally or not) to equate thinness with health/beauty (standards for beauty being often arbitrary cultural concepts to begin with), and at all stages of life are inundated with images of what IS healthy or beautiful. This affects people.

Even people with a ton of "personal responsibility" are affected by socialization, unless you sprang fully-formed from the head of Zeus or something.

OK so what you're arguing amounts to environmental determinism

If all you are is what you've been fed by your environment then there is no case to be made for ever assigning responsibility to anyone for any of their actions

After all Hitler was just a product of his environment, it could have been anyone, right?

And more on topic, which we're getting hella far away from, the notion that it's socially irresponsible to publish idealized images of sexy women because it could have negative effects on real women is also preposterous. ANY form of publication or expression or speech could have negative effects on people. If I clearly and articulately express my reasons for being agnostic, and an extremely religious person reads it, and my views threaten their worldview such that they enter an inner crisis where the underpinnings of their world seem to crumble and they aren't able to reconcile my reasoning with their personal notions of how things should be, then is it socially irresponsible of me to have said those things? Or what if I portray people like Mother Theresa, Gandhi, and MLK as role models, and people become discouraged and depressed as they are unable to live up to those examples? All of these are analogous. People need to think through these things before they start accusing the media and so forth of wrecking everybody's happiness.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:58:19 am by Jude »
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Oh Jesus

Zironic

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1. I think in this age of perfection it is the flaws that make people more attractive a.k.a in music etc...
2. She looks real to me, and even more she looks real[i/] a.k.a not airbrushed makes her actually seem human.

I don't understand why the fashion industry is freaking out, Us normal folk see women in magazines made to be something they can't be in real life without extensive plastic surgery, what is wrong with portraying women how they actually are?
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Jude

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what is wrong with portraying women how they actually are?
Sells less copies
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Quote from: Raphite1
I once started with a dwarf that was "belarded by great hanging sacks of fat."

Oh Jesus

Duke 2.0

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what is wrong with portraying women how they actually are?
Sells less copies
And causes crap like this thread.
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Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
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Hungry

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Damn socially acceptible people and your problems...

Personally speaking, you "normal" people have strange problems with which borders on insanity...

You all prise beauty but cant accept that everyone is beautiful and connect strange meanings to assorted biological traits and their apearent affects on sociological workings.

I've had twelve female companions complain about "more beautiful" women, and numerous male associates gawk and oggle "very beautiful" women...

YOU people dont make coherent sense.

 :-\
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Jude

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Whatever. Beauty is in the neurons of the beholder, and we all have neurons wired up in fundamentally similar ways, the design of which, incidentally, is largely affected by its previous owners having been horny as fuk
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Quote from: Raphite1
I once started with a dwarf that was "belarded by great hanging sacks of fat."

Oh Jesus

G-Flex

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Socialization accounts for damn near all of a person's behavior,
I'm just gonna say this is real bad psychology and you're gonna have a helluva time making a valid empirical case for it

At least if you mean it in the sense I think you do, and you probably do

It's self-evident. A person is not born with his ideas. They're learned. They're taught. They're the result of observation of the world around you and how the world interacts with you, using your own natural inclinations (to whatever degree those exist) and potential as a template upon which to build.

Quote
OK so what you're arguing amounts to environmental determinism

If all you are is what you've been fed by your environment then there is no case to be made for ever assigning responsibility to anyone for any of their actions

After all Hitler was just a product of his environment, it could have been anyone, right?

This is an extremely naive view of it.

Realizing the impact of environment on an individual doesn't mean that you can't respond to that person's behavior; it just causes you to think differently about how to do so and what it means to do so.

For instance, you can still punish people for things that they do. This serves the purpose of influencing their behavior towards what is more acceptable, and to deter potential violation from other people in the future.

It also makes you actually think about what social forces are in play. If someone does something terrible, you should ask why they've done something terrible, and try to make things better in order to prevent it.

You decided to bring up Hitler for some weird reason, so yes, I'll bite: It COULD have been someone else. There was a lot of pre-existing racial/ethnic/nationalistic prejudice in Germany at the time; it was bound to come to a boiling point given the right conditions, and post-WWI conditions for Germany were terrible. The country becoming zealously nationalistic and militaristic was not some rabbit Hitler pulled out of his hat; they were in severe debt due to the post-war economic penalties levied against them after WWI, which is really great if you want a country to feel pissed off and develop such tendencies as what led to WWII. So yeah, there are sure as hell reasons why Hitler turned out the way he did, but no, I don't know all of them, because I'm damned if I know what Hitler's parents, education, or social environment were like, but that which I do know makes it not very surprising at all that a person like that existed and rose to power. He did not invent nationalism, or militarism, or eugenics, or racism, or anti-semitism, or anything like that. These are qualities reflected in the place and time in which he lived, were reflected in the other political/military leaders of Germany (to varying degrees), and undoubtedly influenced him more than he influenced them (aside from his serving as a warning to the future).

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And more on topic, which we're getting hella far away from, the notion that it's socially irresponsible to publish idealized images of sexy women because it could have negative effects on real women is also preposterous. ANY form of publication or expression or speech could have negative effects on people. If I clearly and articulately express my reasons for being agnostic, and an extremely religious person reads it, and my views threaten their worldview such that they enter an inner crisis where the underpinnings of their world seem to crumble and they aren't able to reconcile my reasoning with their personal notions of how things should be, then is it socially irresponsible of me to have said those things?

This is an extremely poor comparison. If you're giving people information on a worldview that differs from their own, and their psychology crumbles because of it, then obviously they were inadequately prepared to deal with the possibility of any worldview existing aside from their own; the problem isn't that you gave them more ideas to chew on, it's that something about how they were raised/developed/lived caused them to be unable to cope with ideas that aren't their own, and that's the terrible part.

The key thing is that you're being constructive, whereas the media relies on changing people's view of what is naturally beautiful to something that is not even natural. What you described in your religious example is honest and constructive; this is dishonest and is designed (intentionally or not) to create a culture of unhealthy celebrity-worship and idolization, which the media rely on in order to sell product. I don't think it's some kind of crazy intentional conspiracy on part of the media; I think it's just business principles at work, which happen to be unethical when you really think about them.

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Or what if I portray people like Mother Theresa, Gandhi, and MLK as role models, and people become discouraged and depressed as they are unable to live up to those examples?

Except that those were real people. If you want a better analogy, it's like if you make shit up about Mother Theresa or Ghandi or MLK Jr. to make them look even better than they were, and say that the way they were is the ONLY way to be a great person. This does happen sometimes! Role models get played up to be more than they actually were, and sometimes it's implied that there are only certain few ways to be great people. This is unhealthy as well!

Conversely, if the media acted the way they do in your analogy, they wouldn't be photoshopping or airbrushing anyone, and wouldn't necessarily promote them as the sole standard of beauty either.


Whatever. Beauty is in the neurons of the beholder, and we all have neurons wired up in fundamentally similar ways, the design of which, incidentally, is largely affected by its previous owners having been horny as fuk

This is flat-out false. There are certain markers for beauty that carry over across time and space (such as "does this person appear healthy and child-bearing"), but the particulars vary remarkably across culture, especially since people wind up associating different things with, say, health. For instance, heavyset women were once in vogue in European society (from which ours is derived anyway, if you live in Europe, Australia, or North America, so we're not even talking an extremely foreign cultural influence here), and if I had to give you a reason for it, it would be that people associated it with being healthy, since obesity was less a problem than was people not getting enough to eat, especially amongst the poor. These days, it's the opposite: The more common health problem is obesity (again, worse with the poor), so thinness is associated with health as a reaction. It's not exactly a coincidence. These trends can get out of hand too in a hypercorrective fashion, as is obvious if you pay attention: Women are quick to get called "chubby" even if they're at a perfectly healthy weight, and eating disorders aren't exactly uncommon.

Point is, more is up to environmental influence than you think. If what you said were true, then cultural standards for beauty simply wouldn't vary very much, unless you somehow think that's genetic too, and I basically already ruled that out as a possibility.
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