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Author Topic: Physics and mathematics discussion  (Read 44219 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2010, 03:10:13 pm »

No, it's just an extrapolation. If there's anything to fill any space, then the anything will do its damnedest to fill the space. Since everything in the universe loses energy constantly (that's a very very sketchy explanation of entropy, I think), it would make sense for this energy to go somewhere and fill that ocean.
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Neruz

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2010, 03:26:05 pm »

No, it's just an extrapolation. If there's anything to fill any space, then the anything will do its damnedest to fill the space. Since everything in the universe loses energy constantly (that's a very very sketchy explanation of entropy, I think), it would make sense for this energy to go somewhere and fill that ocean.

That's kind of not how energy works at all.

There is no such thing as 'energy', the reason things 'lose' energy constantly is because whenever energy of one form gets turned into another form, inevitably some of that energy is converted into heat, which radiates off into the universe and is 'lost'. So to speak.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2010, 03:37:46 pm »

And that's the whole idea about ambient energy. One way or another, there's no void between the atoms. It's in constant motion as it is produced, absorbed, attracted and repelled, but it's all there. Whether still or in waves, it undetectable or formed into quazi-particles. That's what ambient energy is about. No point of space is devoid of energy. The rest is just mulling over the concept and thinking up properties to this energy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 03:40:36 pm by Sean Mirrsen »
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Shoku

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2010, 03:49:50 pm »

There is no absolute speed. If I travel past a planet at 0.9c, the planet travels past me at 0.9c. If there are no other objects around, it seems like I will be stationary. Speed is always relative to something, and thus must be symmetrical because of equivalence.

What always freaks me out about this whole thing is where you have three points A, B and C, where relative to B points A and C are moving at 0.99c in opposite directions but how A relative to C is still moving away at less than 1c.

I know vaguely the reasoning for it but my brain always goes 'no that is silly' when I try to think about it :) Not really a question more of a this confuses me statement.
This is why I keep bringing up the difference between space ahead and behind you. Light send behind you is effectively such a point.

About the negative mass again, it is merely a different way of looking at antimatter.  It behaves exactly as standard theories of antimatter, but is simpler, and therefore, by Occam's razor, I prefer it.

I cannot remember where I read it.  Probably 'A briefer history of time.', by Stephen Hawking.  It was a possible explanation of virtual particles.  The electron and positron appearing and then annihilating, but with no energy input or output, could be viewed as an electron traveling forward and backward in time along different paths.

And, to one of the other questions:

A photon is an oscillation in the electromagnetic field and must always travel at c, as long as there are no disturbances in the field.  Any disturbance slows the photon down.  Why it is the only boson without rest mass (afaik), is something that I have an idea on, but the math has proven to be too difficult for me, so far.
I've been treated like I was stupid for thinking that matter and antimatter interactions were full energy conversions before- were they wrong to tell me there were things going on the next level of particles down?

It kinda defies all logic. What makes lightspeed so special that no two objects can ever be travelling at more than 1c relative to each other? I don't care what maths or physics say about it, until there's definite experimental evidence of this, I refuse to believe it's right.

Yes, I understood that an outside observer can see two objects moving apart at more than 1c total. But imagine a construction a light second in length, a target at one end, a laser at another, moving at lightspeed along the laser's aiming vector (it's all hypothetical of course). If an observer attached to the laser activated it, would the observer at the target see it? If it hit, would it be a second later? If yes, then how would they explain that technically, in universe terms, light just travelled faster than light? What would happen if another lightspeed object intersected the beam, say, a mirror? Would the 2c laser instantly revert to 1c upon leaving the construction's reference frame? If so, then where would the energy of this instant deceleration go?

I'm not a physicist, so treat me and my opinions like you will, but I only understand experimental evidence. Theories are alright when they work, but completely unintuitive derivations of theories that can't be experimentally proven shouldn't be treated as.. what's that word? Axiom, I think.

Relativity, both general and special, makes sense in a general way, being internally consistent with itself in most instances, but it completely defies logic in cases such as above, and therefore should really be taken with a barrelful of salt when FTL travel is concerned.
I know my posts have been a pain a lot of the time but I've covered this several times. Light doesn't go any faster if you have something moving .99c shooting it in front of itself so at c light shot forward shouldn't go anywhere but that doesn't really mean anything because you'd have stopped experiencing time and it's meaningless in a lot of other ways.

At .99c the laser and target thing work just like they would at rest. Time dilation is the bit people are familiar with but because your time would get so slow with only that you'd end up thinking you were covering more ground than light could. This is why space also distorts for you so the distances in front of you get smaller in a way other than you actually moving through them.

Now turn your laser target around so you are shooting backwards and you see questions like "will it hit the moment it fires?" when you don't take this stuff into account but with it even zooming around at .99c the light goes back to that target just like you'd expect at any other time.


And for an observer at point b they'd just see a moving at the speed of light and c moving at the speed of light. B is the point of view so a in relation to c doesn't really define either's speed. You could take a laser pen yourself and sweep it across the sky. If you've got clouds or something far enough away the position of the dot will seem to move fast that a photon would traveling in the same direction you swept the pen but that doesn't really have anything to do with speed. The actual particles still had to travel from your pen in a straight line to the whatever-they-bounced-off-of and back to you at light speed. The dot isn't really a thing and everything that's happened was still under light speed.

I'm not arrogant, at least I don't think I am. ???

I'm not talking down on other theories, I'm seeking to make mine suit experimental evidence.
(also, in the russian roulette example, logic agrees with math and physics, and tells me that pulling the trigger would a very bad idea. And experimental evidence can be obtained by, say pointing the thing at the other guy. :))

I say, let theories exist as long as they work, but it's always possible to arrive at perfectly consistent and inter-agreeing results if the basic source material is wrong. It's like Sudoku. You may place one wrong number and keep filling the table until you're down to two unfinished rows, and then realise you've made a wrong assumption at the beginning and have to start over.

I'm perfectly fine with special relativity and stuff, but if I make an FTL jumper in my garage, I will expect no less than ten times its market cost if the world's scientific community decides to buy it from me. ;D
Well no, we've tested things enough that it's not like Sudoku. We know how much time dilation there should be and we've watched things like radioactive decay follow it. We've shot particles around with enough energy to make them go thousands of times c if f=ma were all there was to it but they still just go reallyreallyclosetoc.

There's no arbitrary limit to speed in space either. You can accelerate as much as you want, and you can always go faster. From your perspective, your speed will approach infinity (though light will always go faster!).
If you don't know calculus sure. Otherwise the meaning of c being your asymptote is pretty clear.

I don't have a job. :P But yeah, things like operational GPS and slow-degrading particles are harder to justify with simple things. I'll have to think about it. Thanks for the idea!

And Il Palazzo, if I never saw a revolver, would not know what it does, and would not be told what the game is about, then yes, I would happily keep pulling the trigger like the mindless drone that I would have to be. I would have likely just as happily do it with a semiautomatic Beretta or an AK-47. If I didn't read so much Wikipedia, didn't have a casual interest in physics and astronomy, and didn't watch Discovery Channel, I wouldn't have any intuition to judge these sorts of physically odd things either. But it so happens that I have the intuition, and it tells me these scientifically heretical things. I'm just trying to make sense of the universe. :)
And I've listened to Aristotle so this whole light things falling at the same speed as light things isn't logical. That's heretical even.
 ::)

Hey at least it wasn't a flat Earth argument.

Intuition tells me a lot of things, but humor tells me Einstein could just as well be an alien agent sent to impede our scientific progress. His postulate, while reasonably close to any truth that might exist, allowed us to make calculations and come to reasonably true results, at the same time limiting our outlook and forcing us to come up with ways to overcome imaginary barriers imposed by science. That's humor. Intuition tells me that it's wrong to base everything you know on something that, despite all the calculations and matching results, might still be wrong in something.
So you're saying it's wrong to base anything we know on anything. Lovely.

Intuition tells me that it's wrong to base everything you know on something that, despite all the calculations and matching results, might still be wrong in something.

Oh, yes. It's not about special relativity being the absolute truth. It's probably wrong, or at least incomplete, or a limiting case, as relativity and quantum mechanics have yet to be married without trouble. Much as Newtonian physics was a limiting case of relativistic physics (for the limits mass and velocity to zero). The point is that special relativity is the best theory there currently is to explain certain known phenomena. And you don't seem to have a good alternative either (yet?). Which doesn't mean there doesn't exist one.

Science is not about finding true descriptions of reality, it's about finding better (more complete, simpler) descriptions than whatever currently exists.

What is surprising is that you seem to think that you can up with a better explanation just like that, all while you apparently haven't really tried to understand the explanation that already exists.

These things are complicated. The world is complicated. Things are difficult. You probably wouldn't just sit down and think, hey!, I will compose a better symphony than Beethoven! I will design a better space ship than NASA!

But to come up with a better theory of the universe? No problemo!
Well in America we don't trust scientists, much less think about how many of them have been thinking about things for how long. There's only like fifty of them and half are probably on drugs or evil buttholes torturing animals in a basement, right?

pages 3 to 7 to come :/
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Neruz

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2010, 03:53:20 pm »

And that's the whole idea about ambient energy. One way or another, there's no void between the atoms. It's in constant motion as it is produced, absorbed, attracted and repelled, but it's all there. Whether still or in waves, it undetectable or formed into quazi-particles. That's what ambient energy is about. No point of space is devoid of energy. The rest is just mulling over the concept and thinking up properties to this energy.

I'm not sure where to start...


How about we start with the basic foundation of your 'idea'; what is 'energy'?

decius

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2010, 04:21:40 pm »

Kind of a regression to 5 pages ago (Yesterday): Have any results been published directly measuring the speed of light in interplanetary space? The experiments I know of have all been performed in atmosphere, and I do not accept that the presence of atmosphere is irrelevant.

As well, if you assume that the speed of sound in atmosphere is constant relative to all observers, and limit your observations to sounds propogated in atmosphere, you get very similar time-travel maths at attainable and testable speeds. That is to say, a supersonic aircraft arrives before it leaves, and experiences events prior to their occuring.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2010, 04:27:49 pm »

And that's the whole idea about ambient energy. One way or another, there's no void between the atoms. It's in constant motion as it is produced, absorbed, attracted and repelled, but it's all there. Whether still or in waves, it undetectable or formed into quazi-particles. That's what ambient energy is about. No point of space is devoid of energy. The rest is just mulling over the concept and thinking up properties to this energy.

I'm not sure where to start...


How about we start with the basic foundation of your 'idea'; what is 'energy'?
42.

No, really. That's about the best answer I can give, besides that Energy is Energy. It's the end-all-be-all of the Universe. Anything you can find in this universe consists of energy on its lowest level, and at any level above that it's energy structured into a form that gives the "anything" its definition. Imagine the universe after heat death, a dark lifeless void. It's filled with energy. Static, motionless. Ambient. It's not really energy, and yet it is that which would have been energy if it was moving, because all of existence has disappeared into it. I don't really believe the universe would ever reach that point, but the general idea of fluid viscosity tends to support that. There's also vorticity, the tendency of a fluid flow to curl. Shoot a high-power stream of low-viscosity fluid, and its edges will immediately form vortexes. Now imagine zero, or infinitesimal viscosity. This fluid would be nigh undetectable, especially if it had infinitesimal density. But it would have an intriguing tendency to curl up into eternally-spinning vortexes whenever a stream forms within it. Remember my posts about particles being essentially little bits of energy spinning in complicated ways? This is where I got the idea.

Enough for now. More questions?

@sound experiments: Hm? Well, a supersonic aircraft will fly by you before you can hear it roar, but in the same vein, any attempt to make a sound at the tail of the craft that would be heard at the nose of the craft would be impossible if the craft's hull itself didn't propagate sound.
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dreiche2

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2010, 04:42:38 pm »

As well, if you assume that the speed of sound in atmosphere is constant relative to all observers,

Well but why would you assume that when it's obviously not true. There is, of course, evidence against it, and it doesn't fit the fact that sound propagates in a physical medium, air. There is evidence for the constancy of light however. Hello?

No, really. That's about the best answer I can give, besides that Energy is Energy. It's the end-all-be-all of the Universe. Anything you can find in this universe consists of energy on its lowest level, and at any level above that it's energy structured into a form that gives the "anything" its definition. Imagine the universe after heat death, a dark lifeless void. It's filled with energy. Static, motionless. Ambient. It's not really energy, and yet it is that which would have been energy if it was moving, because all of existence has disappeared into it. I don't really believe the universe would ever reach that point, but the general idea of fluid viscosity tends to support that. There's also vorticity, the tendency of a fluid flow to curl. Shoot a high-power stream of low-viscosity fluid, and its edges will immediately form vortexes. Now imagine zero, or infinitesimal viscosity. This fluid would be nigh undetectable, especially if it had infinitesimal density. But it would have an intriguing tendency to curl up into eternally-spinning vortexes whenever a stream forms within it. Remember my posts about particles being essentially little bits of energy spinning in complicated ways? This is where I got the idea.

Well, in your defence, afaik there are things like vacuum energy coming from quantum mechanical fluctuations, and particles as spinning bits of something is, as image, potentially related to the truth as well. Like I said, QM is a much better playground for Star Trek infused techno babble  :)

Personally, I believe that particles with mass are spinning knots of space itself, but hey...  ;D
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Neruz

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2010, 04:51:46 pm »

And that's the whole idea about ambient energy. One way or another, there's no void between the atoms. It's in constant motion as it is produced, absorbed, attracted and repelled, but it's all there. Whether still or in waves, it undetectable or formed into quazi-particles. That's what ambient energy is about. No point of space is devoid of energy. The rest is just mulling over the concept and thinking up properties to this energy.

I'm not sure where to start...


How about we start with the basic foundation of your 'idea'; what is 'energy'?
42.

No, really. That's about the best answer I can give, besides that Energy is Energy. It's the end-all-be-all of the Universe. Anything you can find in this universe consists of energy on its lowest level, and at any level above that it's energy structured into a form that gives the "anything" its definition. Imagine the universe after heat death, a dark lifeless void. It's filled with energy. Static, motionless. Ambient. It's not really energy, and yet it is that which would have been energy if it was moving, because all of existence has disappeared into it. I don't really believe the universe would ever reach that point, but the general idea of fluid viscosity tends to support that. There's also vorticity, the tendency of a fluid flow to curl. Shoot a high-power stream of low-viscosity fluid, and its edges will immediately form vortexes. Now imagine zero, or infinitesimal viscosity. This fluid would be nigh undetectable, especially if it had infinitesimal density. But it would have an intriguing tendency to curl up into eternally-spinning vortexes whenever a stream forms within it. Remember my posts about particles being essentially little bits of energy spinning in complicated ways? This is where I got the idea.

You're sort of dancing around the edge of some of the more estoric facets of Quantum Mechanics there, except all your terms are wrong and your reasoning is a bit perculiar.

Your theory also has a gigantic hole in it until you can define what 'energy' is.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2010, 05:13:59 pm »

I can't define what energy is, I can only draw parallels that will never do it justice. And I don't know enough of QM to get its terms right. And really, why do I need proper terms if I'm thinking the system anew? I'm just calling'em what I see. :P

The closest you can come to defining "energy" is, well, the lowest form of matter. It's the closest parallel you can make, there's just no concept in conventional physics that adequately describes what it is. An ideal liquid or gas consisting of infinitesimal particles, a universal medium interacting with itself in ridiculously convoluted ways to produce all the behavior we see. Particles smaller than quarks and anything the quarks are made of. In a way, quantum mechanics is supposed to make no sense because of this. The universe we see is like a clock - or, for a more advanced analogy, a laptop. You can know everything about the clock or the laptop, but unless you posess that specific knowledge, you'll never understand how everything works if you open up the clock or see the multitide of elements and connections on the motherboard with an integrated GPU. You might then overcome the hurdle and look further, trying to understand the interacting forces of gravity, resistance, and friction coming together in gears, or the silicon matrix of logic gates of the CPU. That's still not the lowest level, and you'll have to go all the way down to the molecular or even atomic level to see it all. For the whole universe, the energy base is that lowest level. It's 42, the ultimate answer. Once you know its properties, you understand everything. Which is why I'm looking at it.
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Neruz

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2010, 05:19:10 pm »

I'm afraid right now if i strip all the extra stuff you're piling on top of your argument (which doesn't help by the way), it just looks like you're putting forth Aether again. Aether in a new and different light, but still, at it's core, Aether.

I'm not sure you fully understand what 'energy' is, so to speak.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2010, 05:27:06 pm »

I'm not sure I want to understand what energy is currently thought to be.

And yes, for lack of a better term, it's Aether. It has a twist though, in that everything is made of it. In simple words it sounds too simple. You can dig into simple words and find fault in them. All the extra stuff I'm piling up is there to make an impression, an image that'd help understand the point. The reason I'm avoiding Aether is the same reason I'd be avoiding the terms "perpetuum mobile" or "free energy" if I ever showed you my magnarotor designs. Those words have bad rep, and whenever you mention them people go into the "not again, let's get this crap out of the way" stance, even if what you have has significant differences from what the word used to represent.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 05:29:46 pm by Sean Mirrsen »
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dreiche2

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #102 on: January 08, 2010, 05:41:06 pm »

Ha.

Anyway, dear Sean, you got it wrong! Everything isn't made of energy, everything is made out of space! Energy is mass, and mass are knots in space. That's why mass causes gravity, because gravity is just warping of space caused by the knots in space.

Beautiful, isn't it?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2010, 05:43:12 pm »

Yes, in a way. I guess it is easy to explain gravity that way, but what of everything else? I don't intend to compete against another alternative theory, not at this point anyway.
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"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
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Neruz

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Re: Physics and mathematics discussion
« Reply #104 on: January 08, 2010, 06:15:52 pm »

Um, that explains everything? Energy and Mass are interchangable, Mass is warped Space, this explains all sorts of things, like why your Mass increases as you go faster.

I think somone needs to introduce Sean to modern physics, he seems to be about a decade out of date.
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