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[Solifuge]

You guys are seriously Harshing my proverbial Mellow. Do we really have to kill anyone today? I mean, we're sacrificing two confirmed townies tonight, plus whoever the Spaniards kill... isn't that enough people as it is?

Speaking of which, after some analysis I am wondering whether my Sacrifice plan is really the best option for the long-term... killing (self)confirmed Aztecs does avoid Power-Roles, but it also completely avoids Spaniards... it's a choice between losing a definite ally of low game value (though individual players may have more or less "value" depending on their experience and skill), or killing a possible Enemy or Ally of non-specific value.

Also, as a thought: if a Priest attempts to sacrifice Cortez and dies, (and should we have a Death Priest) they can ask the ID of the Priest's last target, and thereby find Cortez. As far as I can see, there is no other way to confirm him than to attempt to Sacrifice him.

[Vector]

Right.  I'm fine with a no-lynch provided that we sacrifice people we think are Spaniards.  As-is, though, I feel like we're trying to get powers (unknown) for the town in exchange for confirmed townies.  Let the Spaniards kill the townies--that's their job.  Our job is to find Spaniards, and there's a certain amount of sacrifice we have to allow in our day game.

So, if we're going to no-lynch in hopes of not lylo-ing ourselves D1, we need to identify potential Spaniards and point them out to the priests.  Mostly, though, I think we should lynch, and the priests should go for whoever they think is scummiest--and, if they can't see anyone, they can go for the "confirmed townies."  We can't put all our power in a couple of people's hands.  The town's greatest asset--and weakness--is its ability to debate.

[webadict]

You guys are seriously Harshing my proverbial Mellow. Do we really have to kill anyone today? I mean, we're sacrificing two confirmed townies tonight, plus whoever the Spaniards kill... isn't that enough people as it is?

Speaking of which, after some analysis I am wondering whether my Sacrifice plan is really the best option for the long-term... killing (self)confirmed Aztecs does avoid Power-Roles, but it also completely avoids Spaniards... it's a choice between losing a definite ally of low game value (though individual players may have more or less "value" depending on their experience and skill), or killing a possible Enemy or Ally of non-specific value.

Also, as a thought: if a Priest attempts to sacrifice Cortez and dies, (and should we have a Death Priest) they can ask the ID of the Priest's last target, and thereby find Cortez. As far as I can see, there is no other way to confirm him than to attempt to Sacrifice him.

... Uh huh...

Right.  I'm fine with a no-lynch provided that we sacrifice people we think are Spaniards.  As-is, though, I feel like we're trying to get powers (unknown) for the town in exchange for confirmed townies.  Let the Spaniards kill the townies--that's their job.  Our job is to find Spaniards, and there's a certain amount of sacrifice we have to allow in our day game.

So, if we're going to no-lynch in hopes of not lylo-ing ourselves D1, we need to identify potential Spaniards and point them out to the priests.  Mostly, though, I think we should lynch, and the priests should go for whoever they think is scummiest--and, if they can't see anyone, they can go for the "confirmed townies."  We can't put all our power in a couple of people's hands.  The town's greatest asset--and weakness--is its ability to debate.

... Right.

So, anyway, we're basically assuming that everyone sucks so much at the Day game that the only way we can win is at Night.

So, Solifuge, explain how a No Lynch is any more powerful than a Lynch. Because that's a huge leap. Are you suggesting that we're so terrible that we might as well win by luck? Or are you saying that you know that we'd definitely mislynch? What are you saying?

AND I'M GOING TO CUT YOUR THROAT OPEN REDWARRIOR0! Org, prod! He hasn't posted for like... ever.

[Rooster]

Neruz okay, so far so good, but town should joke about being scum.
It's far more likely for scum to do that, but on this forum nothing is normal so...

[webadict]

Neruz okay, so far so good, but town should joke about being scum.
It's far more likely for scum to do that, but on this forum nothing is normal so...

Mispelling is funny.

Passive comment is passively scummy.

[ExKirby]

You guys are seriously Harshing my proverbial Mellow. Do we really have to kill anyone today? I mean, we're sacrificing two confirmed townies tonight, plus whoever the Spaniards kill... isn't that enough people as it is?

Speaking of which, after some analysis I am wondering whether my Sacrifice plan is really the best option for the long-term... killing (self)confirmed Aztecs does avoid Power-Roles, but it also completely avoids Spaniards... it's a choice between losing a definite ally of low game value (though individual players may have more or less "value" depending on their experience and skill), or killing a possible Enemy or Ally of non-specific value.

Also, as a thought: if a Priest attempts to sacrifice Cortez and dies, (and should we have a Death Priest) they can ask the ID of the Priest's last target, and thereby find Cortez. As far as I can see, there is no other way to confirm him than to attempt to Sacrifice him.

... Uh huh...

Right.  I'm fine with a no-lynch provided that we sacrifice people we think are Spaniards.  As-is, though, I feel like we're trying to get powers (unknown) for the town in exchange for confirmed townies.  Let the Spaniards kill the townies--that's their job.  Our job is to find Spaniards, and there's a certain amount of sacrifice we have to allow in our day game.

So, if we're going to no-lynch in hopes of not lylo-ing ourselves D1, we need to identify potential Spaniards and point them out to the priests.  Mostly, though, I think we should lynch, and the priests should go for whoever they think is scummiest--and, if they can't see anyone, they can go for the "confirmed townies."  We can't put all our power in a couple of people's hands.  The town's greatest asset--and weakness--is its ability to debate.

... Right.

So, anyway, we're basically assuming that everyone sucks so much at the Day game that the only way we can win is at Night.

So, Solifuge, explain how a No Lynch is any more powerful than a Lynch. Because that's a huge leap. Are you suggesting that we're so terrible that we might as well win by luck? Or are you saying that you know that we'd definitely mislynch? What are you saying?

AND I'M GOING TO CUT YOUR THROAT OPEN REDWARRIOR0! Org, prod! He hasn't posted for like... ever.

When you're a rubbish scumhunt like me... yeah, that's the case. Anyway... Neruz, you really need to get your act together. I know you can play better than that. And I know little about Mafia.

[Rooster]

Neruz okay, so far so good, but town should joke about being scum.
It's far more likely for scum to do that, but on this forum nothing is normal so...

Mispelling is funny.

Passive comment is passively scummy.

woooow, I stared at this for a longer while and couldn't tell what's wrong.

I ment shouldn't sorry for that.
What's wrong with me? :/

[webadict]

Neruz okay, so far so good, but town should joke about being scum.
It's far more likely for scum to do that, but on this forum nothing is normal so...

Mispelling is funny.

Passive comment is passively scummy.

woooow, I stared at this for a longer while and couldn't tell what's wrong.

I ment shouldn't sorry for that.
What's wrong with me? :/

You said town should joke, when I think you meant shouldn't. But, you're saying that scum is more likely to joke, but then you say it's okay because it's on this forum. That's dumb. If you're going to enforce a system, do it everywhere. You're applying a meta to an entire group. That's stupid and scummy. I could see maybe making a Neruz meta, but I sincerely doubt you can apply some rule like that everyone on this forum, Rooster. I know that plenty of some a few forumgoers tend to take the game seriously. Sure, a lot of us make jokes to begin with, and but you're pointing it out and saying it's okay all at once.

Not cool, scumface. Not cool.

Also, Org, prod RedWarrior0.

[dakarian]

Oh no, i'm fine with arguing with him, i'm just not going to let it escalate out of control like i did with forsaken in P12. Escalating arguments are a terrible thing, as it makes all the other players tired of it, so they start ignoring both parties, which is exactly what the scum want.

"Let me try to back away from my claim since I KNOW it was too weak to stand.  Oh, and also let me avoid making a scumtell so I can try to look pro-town doing it."

Are you advocating that, instead of going after people we believe are scum, we should wish wash around just to avoid causing a scene? 

Btw, the other person you, as scum, argued with was Forsaken.  Forsaken ended up not only being town but being the ONLY person who, if the town followed him, would've just about tore us apart since you were the one person we did NOT want to have killed.

But no, town shouldn't be trying to scumhunt.  Forsaken should've ignored you like everyone else and go lynch Org out of policy instead.

At the moment, my votes are for Dak and Zai scum, Dak for the reasons i've already mentioned, and Zai for apparantly using the reason "I don't believe you were being silly" as a reason. Now, if that is true, Zai has either never interacted with me before, or he's an idiot. I know the first to be false, and i'm fairly sure that Zai is not an idiot, ergo the logical conclusion is that his 'reason' is false, which means he has an unspoken ulterior motive, which usually means scum.

So everyone that votes on you is an idiot or scum?  That's interesting.

Btw, if you're not willing to actually TRY to scumhunt or pressure me then what's your point to voting for me, or do you not care to actually try to find proof whether I'm scum or not? 

I feel it's also impotant to point out that Zai has not actually contributed anything to this discussion, dakarian has at least tried, Zai's total contribution has been two posts which, when distilled, amount to "Neruz is scum gies."

Says the man who placed a 5th (had to check back and see it was 5th, not 4th) vote as a 'joking random vote' with a dash of active lurking to boot.  Doesn't help when the first REAL attack you've done was on me, which you've already said you want to back out of.

Finally, dakarian, i do not believe you are a perfect player who never makes mistakes. In fact i happen to know that you have scumslipped badly several times in the past. I do, however, know that you are usually a very analytical player and you usually back up your votes with solid analysis and reasoning.

Is ALL you have on me meta?  If so, mind actually making it ACCURATE meta?  You fuss that I didn't have solid analysis and reasoning on my opening vote on you.. even though this is Day 1 when the goal is to create the data used to analyze and reason.  You push people, prod them, pressure them until they crack.  Then, ONLY THEN, do you have real data to use.  Until then, you are literally throwing BS at them.  That's the basis behind the RVS and the town's true aim for Day 1.

So enough with this "OMG, it's 12 hours and Dakarian doesn't have a rock-solid case" since this isn't Court..not yet.  I'm not a lawyer and you aren't on trial.

No, I'm the investigator and you're sitting in a chair with a spotlight under you.  I don't KNOW you are the murderer but I'm going to find out.  Personally, I believe I have enough to really take you to trial.

At the moment, your analysis and reasoning seems to amount to "I don't believe you. You cannot have made a random vote because I say so, and the last time someone tried the 'dakarian is a good player' argument, that person turned out to be scum. Therefore you are scum as well!"

Close.

My argument is thus:

You weren't exactly sure who you wanted to vote for: You made a RV on Webadict but you can't just leave it at that.  So you see Solifuge with 4 votes on her already and she's not exactly doing well to defend herself.  As such, you join in to plop your vote down.  When you got called out on it, you used the jokes already thrown about to try to dispel it and, failing that, decided to deem THAT your RV and 'part of the joke'.

The problems:

- you already did a starting random vote
- you had enough time to read through everyone else and see that they had REASONS to vote for Solifuge
- It's rather hard to claim you were just messing around when it's the 5th vote.
- When JaaSwb pointed it out to you, you tell him that he should consider dropping his vote, even though it's JaaSwb is currently pressuring Solifuge while you were 'random voting'.

The last is additionally ugly when linked to the belief you had that we were running under Hammers.  You suggested that JaaSwb should pull his vote if he feels that the bandwagon wasn't justified.  However, that suggests that you, who keep your vote on her, DO feel it justified for her to have 5 votes on her.  You make the claim that 'there's not enough scum to complete the bandwagon'.  That, though, doesn't take to account that a good batch of the town is aiming at her for the lynch AND it shows that you are greatly considering that Solifuge isn't scum (thus the risk of being quickhammered by scum).


So to distill that more, you 'randomvote' on someone who already has a large bandwagon on them AFTER you've already made an initial randomvote and show heavy signs that you don't deeply feel that they are scum.  You do this under the belief that she could've been hammered and seem content with leaving her in that state without caring to find out if she is scum or, if she's town, if it's a town misread or a scum-based bandwagon. 

Sidenote:  Bandwagon = joining others in voting for the same person without having a strong reason for doing so.

Like..say.. being the 5th person to vote because of a 'joking randomvote'.



In short you've:

Bandwagoned
Backpeddled
Showed lack of care on the alignment of a potential lynch
Displayed a lack of willingness to scumhunt
And (now demonstrated in our fight) a desire to avoid 'scumtells' rather than focus on what you need to do.

If you can't see the logical holes in your argument dakarian, then there is no hope for your scum game.

Mind pointing out the logical holes now that I DO have something proper to analyze?  Also, mind displaying how a LACK of analysis is actually a scumtell for me, considering you WERE there during Paranormal 12?

[Solifuge]

Beware. More Text Wall Follows:

Concise Version:
1) Webadict is under my increasing suspicion. Neruz is striking as either foolhardy, or scumy, and gets my vote.
2) The sacrifice plan is starting to look like a terrible idea. We shouldn't be sacrificing known powerless Aztecs, because that gives the Spaniards an advantage in info and numbers.
3) Everyone is getting way to angry about this game, and it's just starting. Chillax, as it were!


Dak has had some strong gut-based arguments that seem to comply with a sensible model of scum-hunting. My suspicion has been there, but this is a good direction to take, methinks. Neruz the rapist banana it is (quite the creepy avatar there!).

So, Solifuge, explain how a No Lynch is any more powerful than a Lynch. Because that's a huge leap. Are you suggesting that we're so terrible that we might as well win by luck? Or are you saying that you know that we'd definitely mislynch? What are you saying.

Pardon for calling this out (its the paranoia talking), but why do you seem so confused with everything players have been saying this game? You're misrepresenting several sensible arguments, when the Webadict I know tends to be on the ball with details. I'm thinking this may be a scum-tell for you.

What I am saying that it is worth our reconsideration to weigh which is better: to sacrifice self-claimed powerless Aztecs, and thereby avoid nailing power-roles, or to have all priests take a random stab at scum, giving them a chance of getting a Spaniard. The random stab method (coupled with a spectral interview with a Death Priest) is also the only method by which we can irrefutably find Cortez.

I've realized that, by having powerless Aztecs claim publically, this puts a LOT of info in the Spaniards' hands. They know who they are already, and with public sacrifice targets they will whittle down the town, while also getting an increasingly better picture of who the Power Roles are. It's highly dangerous, and benefits the Spaniards more than the Aztec. Since you are generally very perceptive about this sort of thing, Web, I tend to suspect you might have realized that this benefits the Spaniards, and thus are trying to keep it as our plan of attack.

AND I'M GOING TO CUT YOUR THROAT OPEN REDWARRIOR0! Org, prod! He hasn't posted for like... ever

Ermm... Rawr?
Lurking or no, might I advise several deep breaths. That, or don't play the TOWNIE RAEG card too heavily. Angry is your general way, but it makes you look like you're trying too hard.

[webadict]

Oh no, i'm fine with arguing with him, i'm just not going to let it escalate out of control like i did with forsaken in P12. Escalating arguments are a terrible thing, as it makes all the other players tired of it, so they start ignoring both parties, which is exactly what the scum want.

"Let me try to back away from my claim since I KNOW it was too weak to stand.  Oh, and also let me avoid making a scumtell so I can try to look pro-town doing it."

Are you advocating that, instead of going after people we believe are scum, we should wish wash around just to avoid causing a scene?

No need to put two passive points in a row.

Btw, the other person you, as scum, argued with was Forsaken.  Forsaken ended up not only being town but being the ONLY person who, if the town followed him, would've just about tore us apart since you were the one person we did NOT want to have killed.

But no, town shouldn't be trying to scumhunt.  Forsaken should've ignored you like everyone else and go lynch Org out of policy instead.

At the moment, my votes are for Dak and Zai scum, Dak for the reasons i've already mentioned, and Zai for apparantly using the reason "I don't believe you were being silly" as a reason. Now, if that is true, Zai has either never interacted with me before, or he's an idiot. I know the first to be false, and i'm fairly sure that Zai is not an idiot, ergo the logical conclusion is that his 'reason' is false, which means he has an unspoken ulterior motive, which usually means scum.

So everyone that votes on you is an idiot or scum?  That's interesting.

Btw, if you're not willing to actually TRY to scumhunt or pressure me then what's your point to voting for me, or do you not care to actually try to find proof whether I'm scum or not? 

I feel it's also impotant to point out that Zai has not actually contributed anything to this discussion, dakarian has at least tried, Zai's total contribution has been two posts which, when distilled, amount to "Neruz is scum gies."

Says the man who placed a 5th (had to check back and see it was 5th, not 4th) vote as a 'joking random vote' with a dash of active lurking to boot.  Doesn't help when the first REAL attack you've done was on me, which you've already said you want to back out of.

Finally, dakarian, i do not believe you are a perfect player who never makes mistakes. In fact i happen to know that you have scumslipped badly several times in the past. I do, however, know that you are usually a very analytical player and you usually back up your votes with solid analysis and reasoning.

Is ALL you have on me meta?  If so, mind actually making it ACCURATE meta?  You fuss that I didn't have solid analysis and reasoning on my opening vote on you.. even though this is Day 1 when the goal is to create the data used to analyze and reason.  You push people, prod them, pressure them until they crack.  Then, ONLY THEN, do you have real data to use.  Until then, you are literally throwing BS at them.  That's the basis behind the RVS and the town's true aim for Day 1.

So enough with this "OMG, it's 12 hours and Dakarian doesn't have a rock-solid case" since this isn't Court..not yet.  I'm not a lawyer and you aren't on trial.

No, I'm the investigator and you're sitting in a chair with a spotlight under you.  I don't KNOW you are the murderer but I'm going to find out.  Personally, I believe I have enough to really take you to trial.

At the moment, your analysis and reasoning seems to amount to "I don't believe you. You cannot have made a random vote because I say so, and the last time someone tried the 'dakarian is a good player' argument, that person turned out to be scum. Therefore you are scum as well!"

Close.

My argument is thus:

You weren't exactly sure who you wanted to vote for: You made a RV on Webadict but you can't just leave it at that.  So you see Solifuge with 4 votes on her already and she's not exactly doing well to defend herself.  As such, you join in to plop your vote down.  When you got called out on it, you used the jokes already thrown about to try to dispel it and, failing that, decided to deem THAT your RV and 'part of the joke'.

The problems:

- you already did a starting random vote
- you had enough time to read through everyone else and see that they had REASONS to vote for Solifuge
- It's rather hard to claim you were just messing around when it's the 5th vote.
- When JaaSwb pointed it out to you, you tell him that he should consider dropping his vote, even though it's JaaSwb is currently pressuring Solifuge while you were 'random voting'.

The last is additionally ugly when linked to the belief you had that we were running under Hammers.  You suggested that JaaSwb should pull his vote if he feels that the bandwagon wasn't justified.  However, that suggests that you, who keep your vote on her, DO feel it justified for her to have 5 votes on her.  You make the claim that 'there's not enough scum to complete the bandwagon'.  That, though, doesn't take to account that a good batch of the town is aiming at her for the lynch AND it shows that you are greatly considering that Solifuge isn't scum (thus the risk of being quickhammered by scum).


So to distill that more, you 'randomvote' on someone who already has a large bandwagon on them AFTER you've already made an initial randomvote and show heavy signs that you don't deeply feel that they are scum.  You do this under the belief that she could've been hammered and seem content with leaving her in that state without caring to find out if she is scum or, if she's town, if it's a town misread or a scum-based bandwagon. 

Sidenote:  Bandwagon = joining others in voting for the same person without having a strong reason for doing so.

Like..say.. being the 5th person to vote because of a 'joking randomvote'.



In short you've:

Bandwagoned
Backpeddled
Showed lack of care on the alignment of a potential lynch
Displayed a lack of willingness to scumhunt
And (now demonstrated in our fight) a desire to avoid 'scumtells' rather than focus on what you need to do.

If you can't see the logical holes in your argument dakarian, then there is no hope for your scum game.

Mind pointing out the logical holes now that I DO have something proper to analyze?  Also, mind displaying how a LACK of analysis is actually a scumtell for me, considering you WERE there during Paranormal 12?

I'm sorry, my mistake. The whole thing is rather passive. You don't seem to care enough about what you're talking about, you know? Where's the feeling! You've got a stand going but you're not putting forth much of an effort, dakarian.

Beware. More Text Wall Follows:

Concise Version:
1) Webadict is under my increasing suspicion. Neruz is striking as either foolhardy, or scumy, and gets my vote.
2) The sacrifice plan is starting to look like a terrible idea. We shouldn't be sacrificing known powerless Aztecs, because that gives the Spaniards an advantage in info and numbers.
3) Everyone is getting way to angry about this game, and it's just starting. Chillax, as it were!


Dak has had some strong gut-based arguments that seem to comply with a sensible model of scum-hunting. My suspicion has been there, but this is a good direction to take, methinks. Neruz the rapist banana it is (quite the creepy avatar there!).

So, Solifuge, explain how a No Lynch is any more powerful than a Lynch. Because that's a huge leap. Are you suggesting that we're so terrible that we might as well win by luck? Or are you saying that you know that we'd definitely mislynch? What are you saying.

Pardon for calling this out (its the paranoia talking), but why do you seem so confused with everything players have been saying this game? You're misrepresenting several sensible arguments, when the Webadict I know tends to be on the ball with details. I'm thinking this may be a scum-tell for you.

Uh huh... Well, the thing is, when you're saying that you're powerless, it's either an attempt to avoid power roles from wasting their abilities on you or to avoid suspicion in general. Also, it increase the chance of an actual power role being killed! EH? Look at that! Moron makes a point, huh?

I want to know why a No Lynch would be useful at all, because frankly, there's no way it would ever be helpful. It's like starting over tomorrow with no evidence. Well, except that there's like 20 dead people. you could've gotten everyone to sacrifice you to minimize deaths, maybe, but No Lynching is like shoot yourself in the foot. Somehow. But, thanks to you, everyone's real glad to know who's NOT a power role.

What I am saying that it is worth our reconsideration to weigh which is better: to sacrifice self-claimed powerless Aztecs, and thereby avoid nailing power-roles, or to have all priests take a random stab at scum, giving them a chance of getting a Spaniard. The random stab method (coupled with a spectral interview with a Death Priest) is also the only method by which we can irrefutably find Cortez.

I've realized that, by having powerless Aztecs claim publically, this puts a LOT of info in the Spaniards' hands. They know who they are already, and with public sacrifice targets they will whittle down the town, while also getting an increasingly better picture of who the Power Roles are. It's highly dangerous, and benefits the Spaniards more than the Aztec. Since you are generally very perceptive about this sort of thing, Web, I tend to suspect you might have realized that this benefits the Spaniards, and thus are trying to keep it as our plan of attack.

That's a pretty good one, blaming your plan on me. I LOL'd. I honestly can't believe you tried that. Explain, with great emphasis, how I managed to make your terrible pan my idea? No, I'd rather have a plan like, say, voting for who we should sacrifice each Night. But, that still gives the scum an idea of who not to hit. Which you would probably blame all on me, no doubt, right?

AND I'M GOING TO CUT YOUR THROAT OPEN REDWARRIOR0! Org, prod! He hasn't posted for like... ever

Ermm... Rawr?
Lurking or no, might I advise several deep breaths. That, or don't play the TOWNIE RAEG card too heavily. Angry is your general way, but it makes you look like you're trying too hard.

Yeah, when people don't show up to play a game they signed up for, it's rather annoying. I'm still waiting to hear whether or not Org prodded RedWarrior0. Because if he doesn't post, he's lurking.

Seriously, Solifuge, go suck a lemon. There's no way you can blame me for your pathetic plan. And if you're going to attack me, do it. Don't hide like a coward. You're going for an easy lynch, mostly with no information of your own.

I'd rather have gotten some more talk time with Rooster, but you've got such a nice mouth on you, it'll have to wait.

[ExKirby]

And once again, I'm left out. I'd prefer not to be killed, but sacrificed.

Oh, and can we spoiler some of that? It's a bit of an eyesaw.

[Vector]

And once again, I'm left out. I'd prefer not to be killed, but sacrificed.

Oh, and can we spoiler some of that? It's a bit of an eyesaw.

That would probably be because you're not such a flamboyant moron.  If you want to get attention, you're going to have to be more abrasively odd.

[webadict]

And once again, I'm left out. I'd prefer not to be killed, but sacrificed.

Oh, and can we spoiler some of that? It's a bit of an eyesaw.

That would probably be because you're not such a flamboyant moron.  If you want to get attention, you're going to have to be more abrasively odd.

Or smarter.

[ExKirby]

YoU WaNt oDd? I GiVe yOu oDd> HoW Do yOu lIkE Me nOw?

Smarter? E=mc².

But seriously, we all know I'm no asset to the town while living.