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[Tracker]

Steam engines were invented in the 1st century (about 2000 years ago) in Egypt. It didn't get far because it wasn't that useful without the advancements in mechanical technology developed in the Renaissance.

[AlanL]

I think it was either the ancient greeks or romans, one of the two invented a steam-ball, but lacked the means to do anything useful with it so it kind of became just a nifty toy. Also, I think it was either the romans or the egyptians that used hydraulic and/or pneumatics to operate some special doors at a temple (i think it was romans with pneumatics).

I don't think the common, familiar piston steam engine really became useful until the 1700s. I hear that the piston engine was invented in the 1700s, so maybe the steam engines before it were actually steam-balls rather than piston engines.

[mickel]

One way to tone down an make the steampunk more "mild" is to make the steam engines more realistic. A steam powered mecha isn't really possible even at today's level of miniaturization, much less so with the tools the dwarves have. A steam engine requires a large boiler, a furnace and other things - we're talking a 5x5 workshop here at least. It needs to be fed water and fuel constantly. It only generates so much power, and that power can be lost in transmission.

Consider that either the power has to be transmitted from the engine by rods, belts and other mechanisms, or the engine is located near the work area and instead the steam is conveyed through pipes to it. Or the whole contraption is near the workshops and water and fuel is brought to the machine. Or the machine, fuel, water, and worshops are all together in an inefficient cluster.

In either case, there's going to be a heavy limit to just how powerful you can make it all, even with dwarven industrialism.

To build a steam powered mecha you'll need a steam engine that can carry itself, it's fuel and it's water in addition to the mecha itself! Consider steam locomotives. They're essentially just a steam engine on wheels, pulling it's fuel behind it, and it's so heavy it needs to run on rails, which is the only way it can be made economical.

A steam powered mecha would simply be so heavy it would run out of fuel or sink into the ground within a few steps, provided the dwarves were lucky, of course, and it didn't break apart under it's own weight.

I always liked Dwarf Fortress for it's brutal realism, and I'd love to see steam power in that vein. Powerful but extremely large.

[JT]

External combustion isn't actually that infeasible as a power source; it's simply inconvenient, since it has a lengthy warm-up time and has more heat dissipation issues than internal combustion.  Internal combustion is more efficient, but you can get some pretty decent torque out of steam -- Jay Leno has a steamcar which, at least on screen, looks as though it could out-accelerate a 60's-era Ford Mustang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car

Essentially, if you get something with the energy density of gasoline, and in a fantasy world that's probably not hard, you can make a steam-powered version of any gasoline-powered machine.  The most significant problem would be balance, which would suggest a quadrupedal or hexapedal version.

[ October 19, 2007: Message edited by: JT ]

[Ratbert_CP]

To the stygian abyss with mecha, I'd like to see steam powered mechanics.  Even without a complex control system (like a steam engine), it'd be fun to harness the power of magma + water...  Sure we know that clouds of steam scald and cook flesh, but if it's created in an enclosed space with a small escape path, you could have steam jets, steam cannons, steam powered pneumatic rams (so you have to scrape goblin paste off the ceiling).  You could set up a pressure plate linked to a floodgate that allows the magma and water to mix.

I could see the need for some new mechanic's items, like a pressure relief valve to prevent excess steam from leaking into dwarf-inhabited areas (in case you miscalculated the precise mixture for your ram).  Maybe pistons as well.  But just the things needed for "macro" engineering projects.  Perhaps this would be the best method for mass transit/portage power.  Probably only used for object transportation (could be a bit hot, wet, and/or violently accellerated for livestock or delicate goods).  Plus, they could act like transistors for you psychos who want to use these sorts of things to build macro-computers (link a steam pressure sensor to a floodgate, etc., etc.).

Just some ramblings from a dabbler who has yet to even dig to the chasm!

Ratbert #CP#Z
"For FUN and HONOR!"

[Ryke Masters]

My idea is pretty complicated, maybe too much, but I'm thinking a steam-powered hauling/chasming mechanism.

It would consist of a workshop-like building, maybe a bit larger than good old workshops, and before building may begin, a few things would have to be designed along with it. What I can think of for now is the chasming/hauling pipe leading from the furnace-to-be to either the chasm or a stockpile, and the second would be a second conduit leading outside or maybe to a "cooling room" filled with water, though that's probably more hassle than digging to the outside. Both of those would have to be built before the actual workshop, as both exits would behave as walls for so long as steam isn't going through.

Once the 'shop is built, any dwarf with th appropriate labor would feed coal and water into a furnace (part of the worksho) and the steam would be stored. If unused it would periodically and automatically be purged in a safe room (or outside, whicherver you planned) by steamdwarves, otherwise it would explode after some time (preferably quite a bit) and a mechanic and/or steamdwarf would have to repair the workshop, not to mention the steam released, though that shouldn't be much of a problem if the workshop is in a closed room. The proper use for it would be to bring several objects to be hauled or chasmed to the workshop, where they would then be shot by pressured steam to wherever they would go.

Several conduits per workshop would be possible to make centralized hauling stations, where all dwarves in an area would bring what they have to haul to the proper conduit entrance, and given enough steam, it would all get to its proper pile almost instantly. Useful in large fortresses.

[ October 19, 2007: Message edited by: Ryke Masters ]

[AlanL]

I like the idea with one exception. Exploding boiler in a mountain hall = seismic event, minus one fortress  :p

Seriously, those things would go out with a BOOM if they were let go too long.

[Sukasa]

Which to me is a good tradeoff.  After all, if you don't take care of your systems, they tend to blow up.  See: Challenger, Columbia, Chernobyl, Three Mile Island.Okay, so TMI didn't explode, but it came damn close.

[ October 19, 2007: Message edited by: Sukasa ]

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Sowelu:
<STRONG>Now, there was one Angband variant I played (Steamband, was it? I don't remember) that pulled off Steampunk.</STRONG>

I'm going to have to go look this up!

[Ryke Masters]

When I said explode, I meant more like break down and release steam into the room instead of the conduit, not downright explode. Though since a lot of what requires hauling is made of stone, that would be a lot of steam.

Compromise would be the destruction of the workshop and partial destruction of the pipes in a forced cave-in?

[Sukasa]

to be perfectly honest, I would rather have a high limit on steam buildup, and if you screw it up it causes a *big* explosion.

Though perhaps the best compromise is a raws switch that determines how it blows up?  I think it should be a big explosion, but others don't, thus the switch being best IMO.

[Aquillion]

I think that complicated devices like these might make sense as artifacts produced by mechanics, but I don't think players should be able to just churn them out at will.

[Keizo]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG>I think that complicated devices like these might make sense as artifacts produced by mechanics, but I don't think players should be able to just churn them out at will.</STRONG>

There's an idea. You could opt to allow "steam-era artifacts" to be created by mechanics in a mechanics workshop... and once made, it'd open up the ability to create replicas of it, essentially opening up new technology. Adding some randomness and variety to everyone's fortress, and allowing for technological "lucky breaks" that might give your fortress a little edge.

In fact, I bet Toady already has something like this planned, since he wants to add more functionality to artifacts.

[Lightning4]

I wonder what happens if a dwarf makes a functional rocket... the goblins would cease to exist shortly after that.

[Dreamer]

quote:Originally posted by Lightning4:
<STRONG>I wonder what happens if a dwarf makes a functional rocket... the goblins would cease to exist shortly after that.</STRONG>

More likely the dwarves would, me thinks.