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[Talanic]

Now, I'm all excited about the upcoming new version, but I don't think this is in it - and I think it would fit well.

Rather than the current system where nobles mandate the manufacture of things they like and nothing else, how about a system of prestige for nobles?  The following things would play into this prestige:

1.  Fortress wealth / architecture.  If you're in command of a fort with absurd value, of course you're important.  However, it's not something you, PERSONALLY, did, so it's not as effective as the other contributions to prestige.

2.  Richness of personal holdings.  Only things that are in rooms that belong only to the noble in question (or to the noble AND the noble's spouse) count for this.  Ideally, this would replace the arbitrary "must have Grand Bedroom".

3.  Gifts given to other nobles from other forts.  Not the same as the current offering system; instead, having canny nobles (or ample goods to trade to capable information brokers) of your own would help you to learn what other forts' and civs' nobles liked.  Giving gifts of appropriate type and value would add significantly to your nobles' and fort's prestige.  Sometimes things might not be gifts to nobles, but to the populace - like large amounts of food to a neighbor with a famine, or weapons and armor.  This sort of prestige only works towards the civ that you're giving the gift to - ideally, it might even work more specifically than that, only to specific nobles.  It might even cheese off the rivals of said nobles.  Rich enough gifts to one side might even trigger war with someone else - but it would nearly guarantee that your friend would join you in the conflict.  More on that later.

What would prestige be GOOD for?  Simple.  Favors.

You want someone to look the other way when invading their neighbor?  Or how about you want boatloads (possibly literally) of a specific resource that's not available to trade in any adjacent civs, but that your friend finds another trade step away?  Perhaps you get sieged by overwhelming numbers of goblins and get an unexpected wave of friendly human cavalry.  Cool things could result.

[Lord Shonus]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You're suggesting that meeting noble mandates, providing them with wealthy quarters, and allowing them to amass personal fortunes would get you sweeter trade deals, including items not normally available, plus the chance of bringing allies on your side in war?

[Talanic]

In best case scenario, yes. 

In worst case, you'd wind up sucking up to the wrong nobles, and getting attacked by their enemies - only to find that you'd send boatloads of goods to a guy who's really a worthless sack 'o' crap, who leaves you to rot.

Or, your extravagant gifts sent to visiting nobles ticks off the town's Soap Maker, who, since he's unemployed, has the ear of all the other dwarves, whom he turns against your nobles, causing a full-scale revolt. 

It's been pointed out that the way I have it written up makes it seem like I'm trying to make the game easier; I don't want that.  I want more options that I think this system would logically flow into. 

This could allow the players to have things to try for after conquering the map.  And, ideally, there'd be flexibility in the system.  Send weapons and armor to someone and maybe they'll use those to help you someday - or they might use them to oppress their own people, dragging your fort's name through the dirt.

[Safe-Keeper]

Never really liked the "tribute" system in Civ III and IV. Just hand someone some gold and stuff and they're your best friends. Makes it way too easy to get people to like you, and it's pretty unrealistic.

In the latest Master of Orion game (which was pretty unimpressive otherwise), you had a system where AI races could interpret your gifts as a sign of weakness or otherwise take it in an undesirable way.

[Talanic]

There would have to be a definite downside to it, and that's one.  Goblins and kobolds would definitely think, "Hey...if he's giving us that stuff, that means he's probably got even better crap we can STEAL."

Also, giving away massive amounts of items would kill demand for those items, making sure that your next attempt to trade with them would get you pennies on the dorfbuck (and the whole system is moot if you can easily produce all the trade items you need with just one legendary crafter, as you can now).  Better instead to gift away single items that were tailored to a specific person's tastes. 

[Safe-Keeper]

{after accidentally trading something out of wood to elves for the 100th time, chopping down 149 trees more than allowed, and drowning a caravan in magma.}

Urist McGeneral: Man, those elves are pissed. Let's give them something to calm them down.

Legolas: How goes the planning of our military campaign?

Duplolas: Very well. We have decided to go to war.

Legolas: I thought our last reconnaissance parties had not yet returned?

Duplolas: They haven't. But mayor Urist McGimli has sent us five tonnes of cheese and the fabled One Iron Cabinet to Rule Them All, along with a stone bearing the runic message "Do not go to war". Clearly they're terrified of us!

Legolas: Ready our armies for battle!

[Andeerz]

LOL!!!  Clever elf name...

Also, MOO3 was this biggest let down of my life...  :C 

[Lord Shonus]

Space Empires was always better anyway.

[Arrkhal]

That system sounds more like a Chinese court or something, rather than a feudal, pseudo-European system.  Which may be okay, Dwarf culture may be more like that.

But still, giving something to another fiefdom in a feudal society typically means "pleeeaaase don't kill meeeeeeeee!"  Realistically, if you give things to more powerful nobles, they're going to be expecting you to help them!  Inferiors give things to superiors or they die, and that's all there is to it in feudalism.

So if dwarves are feudal, military conquest and goods obtained through military might would be the main qualifiers of power.  And if you have a large, fearsome, well-known army, other nobles will offer you things to try and make you not invade!

It'd be nice if there could be several forms of government that are picked semi-randomly during worldgen, with each race favoring some, but potentially choosing any.  One game you could have one big dwarf hippie commune where the yearly caravan just says "take what you need and give what you don't, bro."  The next you could have a cut-throat group of feudal kingdoms at war with each other more often than they fight the gobbos.

[Ankheg]

I suppose it might be nice to make nobles more useful, but I'm not yet convinced this is the way.  Good ideas nonetheless, worth debating around.

Space Empires was always better anyway.

If you think SE was good, you should check out Stars!. Much of the good bits of SE without the hideous UI.

[Talanic]

Thanks guys.  Although, Arrkhal, I do have to say that European nobles offered each other gifts all the time - they just weren't making as big of a deal about it.  You did bring up a good point - you should be getting gifts too.

Also, I thought you'd wind up having to make guest quarters that visiting nobles would use.  Possibly multiple suites - it's even feasible that two separate feuding groups would decide to use your fort as neutral ground for negotiations.  Should that happen, you'd better have two *exactly* identical guest suites.

[Arrkhal]

Although, Arrkhal, I do have to say that European nobles offered each other gifts all the time - they just weren't making as big of a deal about it.

Small ones wouldn't be made a big deal of, but that's kind of exactly it.  A gift would mainly either be too small to really sway someone's opinion either way, or so large that it would seem like a plea not to invade.

Gifts could foster good will, but that still likely wouldn't keep them from going to war over wealth and territory.  It would just mean that they'd try a little harder to keep the opposing nobles alive (while slaughtering conscripted peasants as much as they wanted, because who cares about them?).  But they would be doing that already anyway, as bartering for hostages after a battle was a rather large source of income for the nobles of many European countries.

Gifts and good will also wouldn't help you climb the ranks of nobility.  That was mainly accomplished by, again, good old military conquest; seizing and holding more land.  Some countries, land was much more of an indicator of wealth than gold and gems and things.

Military strength should probably be one of the main factors in how other nobles treat your fortress, colored by things like wealth, friendliness, etc.

Maybe I'm not understanding your thing, though.  I'm mainly just saying that rank should be seperate from what you're calling prestige.  It should certainly be possible to be wealthy and well-liked, while still having a very low rank in the nobility.

[Safe-Keeper]

If you think SE was good, you should check out Stars!.

Never thought I'd see someone else than me bring up that little gem. Yes, Stars! is definitely worth your time.

[Talanic]

Yeah, I think we're at an essential misunderstanding. 

I don't mean for these gifts to be matters of official protocol, but elements of the basic socializing that high society dorfs would do.  They're not required to have any friends, so long as their obligations to the Mountainhomes are met, but if you want to foster relations with someone, that's not done by just sitting in a cave. 

You're right in that a shiny bauble wouldn't, in and of itself, prevent a nefarious king from invading.  But what happens if he's looking to invade someone, not necessarily you, and he finds that three of his dukes actually think you're a nice guy, and you gave his wife those marvelous shoes last year?  He wouldn't reject the idea of attacking you, but he might not be as eager. 

Climbing noble ranks directly through gifts is right out.  However, finding that the Mountainhomes are requesting 30 Pig Iron Bars this year when you have no flux stone could be a pain in the arse...but having an existing good relationship with another fort that does might get them to fill the order for you. 

Miitary strength would dictate how hostile civilizations would treat you, but that just prevents you from getting invaded.  How about getting your fortress *respected*?  Wealth alone won't do it; that's the nouveau riche problem.  Military might is often scorned by the multi-generational noble houses, who don't like getting their hands dirty.  No, you have to get respect for your newly-elevated nobles by earning it, and that will be harder.

[Arrkhal]

Military might is often scorned by the multi-generational noble houses, who don't like getting their hands dirty.

I can't remember right now, but about what century did that happen?  It wasn't exactly a "hard" transition, but there was a definite point in European history where military might and land ownership were the determiners of status among the nobility.

Otherwise, yeah, earning respect and rank would be very difficult.  Still, military might would be a factor even for friendlies.  They may ask you to defend them from gobs, rather than the other way around, too.  And they may try to make nice, to that end.

Of course, in my case, I'll continue to just kill every noble that dares to show his beard, in the most gruesome and prolonged way I can think of. I hope it's eventually possible to throw a successful revolution, and become the capital of your civilization not by making the namby-pamby king happy, but by killing him and the other nobles, and starting your own government.  Which would be hard, you'd need popular support too.  But it'd be worth it.