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Author Topic: Murder Holes  (Read 7123 times)

DarthCloakedDwarf

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Murder Holes
« on: January 02, 2010, 06:56:30 pm »

A Murder Hole is a floor/ceiling with an arrow slit, allowing an attacker to fire point blank at an enemy directly beneath them with lethal accuracy.

Pros:
* Out of reach of melee soldiers
* Difficult for enemy soldiers to hide behind

Cons:
* Near-zero range

Can something like this be implemented into DF? Or is it already?
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Kilo24

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2010, 07:38:44 pm »

So, a floor fortification tile?
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Foehamster

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 07:39:06 pm »

I think its possible with this setup, though they might be shooting directly through the diagonal instead of through the fortification.  Note that archers will be able to fire up through the murder holes.
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Ideas to be verified through SCIENCE:
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▓╬▓ <-A constructed fortification still probably won't work as it has a floor. Carved has a ceiling.
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But personally this is my favorite type of murder hole:
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BradB

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 07:42:27 pm »

I think both (floor) grates and bars can be shot though. Not sure on how much protection they provide though.

This could become the major distinction between grates and bars, with grates having the ability to be turned into a proper "murder-hole" by a mechanic and costing perhaps a mechanism or two.

Or perhaps we could have engravers convert grates or floors or something? More suggestions here would be nice.
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Iden

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 08:55:27 pm »

I picture a murderhole being different in style from a grate or bars. However, these are all similar in nature. A murderhole, to me is a small opening that allows for the dropping of boiling water, oil, etc. or to shoot through. Though, I imagine the liquids being the primary purpose of these murderholes. However, the ideal design for any form of fortification is to maximize the effectiveness of any defender using this fortification while minimizing the potential reprisal from attackers.

In this way do I feel a grate or bars are simply ineffective, as they would most certainly allow more open area to attack through and be seen through than would a typical fortification in the walls of a defensive structure. This would, in my eyes, put a murderhole closely akin to that of a normal fortification tile.

The problem here is that there is no way to currently add murderholes. I think the best way to approach this is to make a new masonry item be available for construction:
  • Floor Fortification (Murderhole).
This construction piece will be able to be placed similarly to any other floor tile (except not on top of solid objects - what would be the point of it then?). It will act akin to any normal fortification, allowing troops to look and fire down, as well as perhaps drop liquids in the future.

Murderholes themselves seem to be primarily for heavy defense. By heavy defense, I mean actually holding a position. It would be difficult to hit anything unless they were directly below you. It's a very limited sight range; even an arrow loop has broader line of sight than a murderhole does. As seen here, a murderhole is a rather tiny thing. You'd be lucky to hit anything below you while they were moving.

The best bet to actually hit anything by throwing things down murderholes (aside from triggered traps in a hallway) would be to have some sort of barricade, ideally a gate or large door that invaders need to stop in front of and break down in order to get into your fort. While attackers are trying to break through a gate, they are stationary, allowing you to easily drop things down upon them from well-planned murderholes.

The problem here, however, is that siege is currently not an option. Enemies do not stop to try to axe down a door. They do not build rams to try to break down a large door or gate. Murderholes, currently, would have almost no use, seeing as there is no reason for attackers to be stationary under them long enough for you to be firing at them or dropping liquids on them. Until they do, murderholes are pretty much useless.

All you need to do is put a small tower with fortifications on the second floor. Dig a trench around the wall of the tower. Any line-of-sight penalties your dwarves get from being on the second floor -- any blind spots they gained -- will be negated by the a ditch/moat around the base of the tower. Other than that, there seems to be currently no actual reason for murderholes until boiling liquids and siegery is made ready.


Misc:
This is the perfect way to implement Stone Fall Traps in the future!
Stone fall traps could be rigged to/on murderholes, so that they fall through murderholes from above.

(Edit: Expanded discussion to include usefulness of murderholes in current implementation of DF.)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 09:19:02 pm by Iden »
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Funk

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 11:53:29 pm »

murderholes small holes to drop rock or boiling water down from(why use oil?)
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Fossaman

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 12:00:07 am »

Oil burns, Funk. Typically you'd drop a torch down at the same time.

I fully support both the floor fortification option (carved or constructed) and the adjustment of rock traps to need a floor fortification. Quite frankly it would be a nice option for weapon traps too, at least the spear/spike and crossbow varieties.
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Grendus

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 12:49:20 am »

Oil also boils at higher temperatures, allowing you to pour hotter (and thus more lethal) liquid onto your enemies. Most oils boil at more than twice the boiling point of water.

I think what Toady intends for bars and grates will eventually cover this. Grates will eventually have, in theory, smaller holes in them. Presumably Toady will also change things so firing through a floor tile you're standing on removes the chance for it to stop the attack, but firing through a grate is difficult.

However, it that doesn't cover murder holes I approve.
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G-Flex

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2010, 12:56:48 am »

Yeah, oil won't boil off as easily, and it'll also probably dissolve into the fats underneath your skin easier and such.
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PsyberianHusky

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2010, 06:25:49 am »

What you should be able to do is get iron buckets with magma and use them do dump on invaders.
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Grendus

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2010, 04:36:56 pm »

Magma is very viscous, it's not easy to pour and doesn't spread out enough on the ground to kill anyone who isn't stupid enough to step on it. Besides, that takes away half the funtm of magma - magma safe mechanics!

Oil is also stickier. It's harder to clean off. And most plant oils aren't hard to get, many you can get just by compression.
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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2010, 04:39:41 pm »

Not to mention that a small amount of magma in a bucket will probably just cool off beforehand, and it would be extremely dangerous and impractical to work with.
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2010, 04:50:36 pm »

Not to mention that a small amount of magma in a bucket will probably just cool off beforehand, and it would be extremely dangerous and impractical to work with.

Personally, I still wouldn't want to get hit by a big chunk of obsidian
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Grendus

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 07:17:33 pm »

There are easier, and more fun, ways to hit them with chunks of obsidian. Besides, murder holes aren't large enough for a bucket to be dropped through.
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Iden

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Re: Murder Holes
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 10:40:09 pm »

There are easier, and more fun, ways to hit them with chunks of obsidian. Besides, murder holes aren't large enough for a bucket to be dropped through.

umm.. pour liquids out of bucket through the hole?
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