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[Urist McCyrilin]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

[Andir]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

It's not about time.  I never even knew that url was in there.  I just never read these screens.  I think I read one dwarf bio once and I might have skimmed the intro text.  Stories mean squat to me because they are all petty and formulaic.  I just delved into fortress building.  When I first picked up DF, I started in adventure mode and was so confused, lost and died of starvation trying to adventure.  I gave up for a long while until something I read brought me back.  I wanted to build a fort and defend it.  So I used the Fortress option, started off and followed the menu on the side.  Played around a bit and started building.  It wasn't until later that I found the wiki pages.

Having the link buried in a wall of text is pointless.  Tutorials are also pointless for this type of game.  In game context sensitive help is the way to go.  An event occurs, if it's the first, pop up a descriptor or help screen on it.  You deploy, your dwarfs need work.  Tell the user and let them do it.  They are running low on food, you might want to (b)uild a farm (p)lot.  it's just that simple.  People don't want to leave the game to read a wiki to play.

[Asmodeous]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

I read the wiki to learn to play, and I have never read the disclaimer text beyond "This is an alpha" I didn't even know the dfwiki link was there.

Zwei is right, it needs to be a different color so it draws the eye.

[zwei]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

Not really. It is not about "not having enough time to read it", it is about "identifying worthless wall of text and skipping it".

Simply put, helpfull info is disguised as disclaimer. Do not mistake skipping that with impatience.

[Asmodeous]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

Not really. It is not about "not having enough time to read it", it is about "identifying worthless wall of text and skipping it".

Simply put, helpfull info is disguised as disclaimer. Do not mistake skipping that with impatience.

Exactly. How many Disclaimers/EULAs has anyone here actually read in their lifetime?

[GenericOverusedName]

Regarding the UI...

There's no rules saying you can't have both shiny buttons to click AND keyboard shortcuts (hotkeys!). Many, many, MANY games have both implemented, and it usually works fairly well. You can click all you want, or you can mash buttons to do most of everything you need.

[Folly]

I feel that the interface would benefit greatly from some simple consolidation.
Instead of K for "look around", V for "view units", Q and T for various building stuff, just make one button that gives you a cursor to interact with stuff and make the options branch off from there. Similarly combine designations, stockpiles and zones. And combine all the various buttons that bring up a menu to take over the screen. That big long list of hotkeys that takes weeks to get used to could be simplified to 4ish options.
Aside from consolidation, we could really use a place in workshops that lists all the materials available to be worked in that shop. Maybe even red-out options that you lack the materials for, and add a tooltip showing what kinds of materials are required for that option. This would save a ton of time searching through the stocks list, and save confusion for newcomers who don't want to check the wiki every time they try to do something.

[Alexhans]

I think that the learning wall is important but it heavily relies on the fact that you need to memorize all this symbols and keys that make different things...

The lack of goal is not so important if the user can effectively manipulate the interface because once he discovers the huge sandbox possibilities I don't think he will get bored.

I noticed that you only mentioned that the last two were optional. SHUN Some us us hate mouse control with a burning passion.

And some of us would love it... It doesn't have to be mouse or keyboard... It can be a configurable option.  (keyboard only or mouse & keyboard)

What I get from DF is the feeling that it's an asignment that needs to be studied before you can do anything. 

[Jay]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

Not really. It is not about "not having enough time to read it", it is about "identifying worthless wall of text and skipping it".

Simply put, helpfull info is disguised as disclaimer. Do not mistake skipping that with impatience.

Exactly. How many Disclaimers/EULAs has anyone here actually read in their lifetime?

But by not doing so, you're opening yourself up for major problems.

The EULA allows them to do anything they want.  Anything.
"By installing this software, you, the client, agree to allow Urist McCompany to log all keys pressed on the computer upon which the software is installed."
And nobody ever notices because they don't read the EULA.
So it's time to start.
Maybe not quite that far, but seriously, some of the most malicious things that happen to the average computer are actually the things you think would be the safest.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I read the wiki to learn to play, and I have never read the disclaimer text beyond "This is an alpha" I didn't even know the dfwiki link was there.

The main reason I never noticed that is that its under the "Build with Parameters" option which NO NEW PLAYER WOULD EVER PICK, a new players is going to go for the simpler "Automatic" stuff the very first time they try anything.  Burying it inside EULA looking text is just icing on the cake, this is the kind of thoughtlessness that pervades the whole interface.

[jokermatt999]

Regarding the UI...

There's no rules saying you can't have both shiny buttons to click AND keyboard shortcuts (hotkeys!). Many, many, MANY games have both implemented, and it usually works fairly well. You can click all you want, or you can mash buttons to do most of everything you need.

Yeah, I definitely did not mean sacrifice the keyboard to switch over to mouse. I also prefer keyboard control; I meant that newcomers might appreciate some mouse control as well. Along with the other ideas being optional, it'd also be nice to have an option to hide the nice shiny buttons.

[zwei]

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

The chances that people who don't have enough time to read such a text will actually sit down with the wiki and actively try to learn how to play DF is very, very, very low I'd reckon.

Not really. It is not about "not having enough time to read it", it is about "identifying worthless wall of text and skipping it".

Simply put, helpfull info is disguised as disclaimer. Do not mistake skipping that with impatience.

Exactly. How many Disclaimers/EULAs has anyone here actually read in their lifetime?

But by not doing so, you're opening yourself up for major problems.

The EULA allows them to do anything they want.  Anything.
"By installing this software, you, the client, agree to allow Urist McCompany to log all keys pressed on the computer upon which the software is installed."
And nobody ever notices because they don't read the EULA.
So it's time to start.
Maybe not quite that far, but seriously, some of the most malicious things that happen to the average computer are actually the things you think would be the safest.

EULA is just scary boogeyman, it has little court value. Pressing "agree" button does not constitute valid, legaly binding contract or anything of similar value, pressing button is not consent. You have to actually sign paper or say personally that you agreed to it in from of judge, otherwise you can do digital version of wiping your but with it.

Companies mostly gamble of fact that "legal stuff" will cow opposition to submission in case of endusers, or that it will not be worth it to defend against legal onslaught in case of companies.

Only time EULA was valid in course was "Blizzard vs BNETD" when BNETD did major mistake of claiming he agreed to it.

Dodgy program will likely not have "hey, i am keylogger" spelled out that way anyway, and pretty much any current software has eula that would allow it, legal boilerplate is pretty bloated nowadays. And yes, even if you press agree button, you can sue em if they try it and you had not reasonable expectation that this would not happen. You did not consicouly give them right to spy on you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability

If you want to be safe with software, you should rather do research on it than to trust company to provide you all the info you need.

[Footkerchief]

I read the wiki to learn to play, and I have never read the disclaimer text beyond "This is an alpha" I didn't even know the dfwiki link was there.

The main reason I never noticed that is that its under the "Build with Parameters" option which NO NEW PLAYER WOULD EVER PICK, a new players is going to go for the simpler "Automatic" stuff the very first time they try anything.  Burying it inside EULA looking text is just icing on the cake, this is the kind of thoughtlessness that pervades the whole interface.

I guess you didn't notice, but:

It shows up on the normal "Create New World Now!" screen too, at least if you don't have anything in your save folder.

The main reason you didn't notice is that you're once again scraping for reasons to get frothy about the interface.

[Jiri Petru]

Sidestepping the flame, and getting back to the interface:

Some time ago I created this topic in Suggestions forum, that dealt with the interface. I posted a mock-up of a new interface, suggested some features, etc. Some other people then actually posted their own interfaces and other suggestions. The topic is short, the interfaces aren't polished, a lot of questions remain unsolved, but I date say it's an interesting topic. Worthy of resurrection, perhaps.

[The Orange Mage]

I still say a Scenario mode would be a really neat way to extend gameplay AND provide a way to have tutorials for new people. It would need a system for message boxes implemented a trigger-checking for victory conditions.

Most fun of all it would require a scenario editor, which entails endless fun!